37 replies to this topic

[danwoehr]

Let’s assume you’ve done your research and have found a quarry or piece of private land in a high percentage formation that you feel exposes a certain horizon of fossils you wish to correct. Now your interpersonal skills can make or break your access to the property despite your valiant research efforts. Below are some simple guidelines I follow in talking to quarry operators and private landowners.

-Keep it brief and direct by giving your name, town you live in, and state your desire to collect fossils on their property on a certain day, then let them respond. If all goes well there is no point in going into all the details noted below.

-If there is hesitation I go into more detail by describing briefly the process by which I decided their area might be productive (old references, correlating geo maps to satellite imagery, etc.) and how I got their contact info (called the county tax office then information, etc). I then explain that I collect for adventure and scientific interest primarily, occasionally making donations to museums, schools, Boy Scouts, etc. This approach establishes that you are not a yahoo but a serious student of the earth sciences worthy of their permission.

-Even if you plan to sell off a few surplus specimens to cover trip expenses, DO NOT state so. The last thing you need is for landowners to feel that you are mining their land for personal profit, prompting them to start charging access fees or worse yet, lease the collecting rights. Instead, if they or someone in their family seems interested in paleo, take them with you and/or offer them surplus specimens as you probably have a better eye than they do for what is hidden on their land. In this way you make them feel as though they’ve gotten something for their trouble, possibly establishing yourself as someone worth dealing with. If they are interested, educate them on the geological and paleo aspects of their property. I’ve been known to show up with fossils in hand and happily give them away simply to be able to collect a new area, knowing it could turn out to be a dud.

-Quarry operators vary widely in their access stipulations and policies. Some say to just go on in and make yourself at home, others want to escort you. Some require hard hats, steel toed boots and/or safety glasses while others make no such rules. I like to reassure them that I’ll stay away from quarry rims. If they don’t tell me to stay away from quarry walls due to falling rock I usually like to look at the walls, but often the spoil piles and floor are all you need. If they are hesitant I rattle off a list of quarries in my state I’ve visited without issue. These guys know their business and will be able to tell that if you’ve been all those places without issue, you won’t present legal problems for them. It is best to assume all these guys are afraid of being sued for your injuries on their property. I’ve produced my own waiver in the past if they wanted one but didn’t have one. Assume the smaller the head count of your group and the more experienced each person is in this pursuit, the more comfortable the owner/operator will be with your presence. Stated simply, choose your company wisely.

In short I try to anticipate the counterarguments that could arise in dealing with private and commercial land owners and have canned responses prepared and ready to regurgitate depending on how the conversation turns. I keep the request as brief as possible, only going into the details noted above as required. I’m not an exceptionally smooth talker by any means, but by knowing what to say ahead of time it isn’t hard to sway things in your favor. I’d have to say that once I get to this point permission is granted at least 50% of the time.

Lastly, a follow up email, letter, or phone call is not only common courtesy, but may make a return trip in the future easier to arrange. I hope this thread helps someone blaze a trail into new collecting venues they thought were out of reach.

[2gould]

As usual, great post Dan!

[ashcraft]

Another suggestion, when you go ask (private property owners, not businesses) take a young child. It makes it ahrder to say no.

Brent Ashcraft

[Xiphactinus]

ashcraft, on Apr 18 2008, 01:14 PM, said:

Another suggestion, when you go ask (private property owners, not businesses) take a young child. It makes it ahrder to say no.

Brent Ashcraft

My 3 boys have been the key to getting into many a property!

[danwoehr]

That's an interesting angle. I suppose its most helpful if there aren't treacherous cliffs or other hazards on the property. Presence of kids could certainly facilitate the deal if it is a safe venue. My son is much more handsome than I so perhaps I should employ this tactic. As an aside, I'd imagine that folks would be less likely to call the Fuzz down on you if they see a 6 year old kid with you in some creek, although I don't advocate use of our progeny as "fossil bait".

Cris, do with this thread as you see fit.

I was granted easy access on the phone yesterday to an active echinoid bearing pit I've never visited before. A buddy and I will go there Sunday. This was a particularly easy going quarry operator. There was no mention of safety other than staying away from moving equipment. It could be quite productive.

[Gatorman]

Well I hope you find a ton Dan, and keep it up with the amazingly helpful posts.

[danwoehr]

"Show a man a fossil site and you have and you have fed him for a day. Teach a man to find sites and you have fed him for life."

[flyguy784]

I found an upper Devonian site I want to prospect. Looking at the trailer that's perched on the property, I plan to take a couple six packs along for the guy. I'll bet he'll look forward to my return trips.

[ashcraft]

Bring a six pack to my house, I'll like you too. I prefer Miller.

Brent Ashcraft

[Mango]

I am a newbie to fossiling, but I have been walking the thin gray legal line in some of my other hobbies. One of my other hobbies is fishing. Sometimes I have ventured into private canals and boat basins in my boat, and private property ponds on land. The one thing that I always do is to pick up trash. I have found that some property owners don't want people trespassing on their land due to experiences with trespassers doing damage to their property, or leaving a mess. Carrying garbage out of their land will help show that you were not causing any trouble. Definately helps earn a return visit. Bringing the kids has helped me, especially with carrying tools, and of course, the trash.

[Shamalama]

I like these threads and am in similar situations here in Pennsylvania. There is a really great borrow pit that used to be accessible as it was a township property. Once it went private it was declared off limits. I visited it not too long ago on the day after Thanksgiving with my two nephews figuring no one would be around. It's not roped or chained off, no fence and it's literally right off the road. No major high walls, very stable landscape and barely active (it looks nearly the same as when I visted 15 years ago). Yes, major gray area/line walking. We were fine for about an hour when someone finally saw us and asked us to leave. I apologized and told them that I used to collect there many years ago and just wanted to introduce my nephews to a favorite spot. I think the person understood but did ask me to leave saying "our insurance doesn't cover it". They weren't visibly angry or upset, a little perturbed mostly. They walked off as we cleaned up and drove out.

Now, I'd like to try and get back in there again and I think the big problem is the insurance thing. What could I offer to convince them that I have my own health insurance and would not hold them responsible for any accidents or injuries that may happen to me? This would be helpful also for other private borrow pits/quarries that I come across and they often are the best way to access a formation.

Dave

[lawooten]

Great information to know. Would love to see a copy of your weaver of liability letter that you present to quarries just as an example.

[lawooten]

I guess everyone has their own approach and as Inyo states I have found that complete honesty have opened areas for us that would not have been had we not been completely honest. I know an older gentleman that closed his land to fossil collecting b/c he was given limited information by others and is very bitter about the experience and it took a lot of time to get him to trust anyone on his land. We ended up going to a neighboring land to get there permission from them then because they were friends he ended up telling the neighbor it would be ok for us to come on his land if we checked in with him and brought no one else with us. He ended up interested in fossils but too old to collect so we show him all we collect on his land and share with him our finds. I look at it this way, we would not have had any of the fossils at all from his land if we had not shown respect to his neighbors and it got back to him. Almost all the time he just looks at them and says go ahead and take them. I think he just like the company when we come his way. He just likes to be involved with what is taken off his land after all he pays the tax on it not us. I know if I owned land I would be very protective of it.

[danwoehr]

Any passion driven hobby involving removal of natural resources is sure to draw opinions from all sides. Allow me to expound on my personal observations. I have friends that for years have collected the Niobrara Chalk in KS for shark and mosasaur material and the Badlands of Nebraska for Oligocene terrestrial material. They used to get land access for the asking; now their options are limited. Why? Collecting rights are being leased. A similar situation has evolved here in Texas with deer hunting over the last 20-30 years. What was once every man's sport is now an aristocratic pursuit reserved for more well heeled folk. I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather not pay to play in the great outdoors and don't think you should have to either. Whether I plan to keep my finds, give some to the landowner, give some to my friends, give some to kids, donate a few, or sell a few, I think I'd be shooting all of us in the foot to make a landowner think he's sitting atop some sort of gold mine. The good thing is that most of my collecting takes place on public land or in quarries or construction sites where the question of economic value never comes up as those in charge are more concerned with avoiding injuries, littering, and vandalism. Now if you'll excuse me I have fossils to prep.....

[FossilForKids]

Dan

I for one appreciate you insight and willingness to help others succeed in this awesome passion of ours known as fossil collecting. Some people tend to get a little self righteous. The person that questioned your ethics while you were just trying to help people be successful is the same person that wrote to me after I got out of the hospital...not I hope you're doing well.....but more of a I know more than your doctor post. I'm sure both times his heart was in the right place but and he meant well but by the time the message got to the ketboard it somehow got distorted.
So Dan, as the cool guy in the Dos XX comercial says...."Stay Thirsty My Friend"!

John

[danwoehr]

No worries - some of my more awkward exchanges on this forum have resulted in good friendships.

[lawooten]

By all means everyone has their own way to approach a landowner about collecting although no one person can have the right approach for everyone. It is good to have other ideas because as we all know everyone we meet will not be the same. Land owners in the area I mentioned are farmers and have not the time to spend even to consider fossils anything other than old bones. But the land is theirs and some places that have closed to collecting are b/c of the abuse done to them by collectors. More and more restrictions are being set into place as we all know. You have to know your area and the people in your area when you approach them and how to approach it may be different in any given area. But as I said there is more than one approach and all should be there for people to choose which would be right for them. My way works for me and I can sure you I am making no judgments on any one or way I myself am giving information from my own years of experience in collecting artifacts, fossils, gems, and minerals that has worked for me as Dan has. I like to cover all my options. Newbie’s need to know different approaches and even ethical isn't a bad way or word. But giving advice one needs to take in considerations the negative effects also to collectors. None of us wants to hurt collecting yet it is not like it was in the past and places are closing to us because of some of the bad practices that have been happening as all of us know. The times are changing and with more and more people collecting things have to change to keep sites open. That’s my opinion and I am sticking to it. What is right for one person may not be right for another but in the end that is what will matter as even government is changing the way we once collected to how we collect today. I want my grandchildren to enjoy the freedom of collecting and ethical seems to me the right way for me. I have found that bringing children in this area for example to get permission is not good because then that landowner sees liability issues if a child gets hurt. But in this area collecting is done by digging and there is a very real safety issue to it. The perseveration of all future fossil collecting for everyone to me should be foremost the most important aspect to consider. I know from experience that landowners can be soured by bad experienced with fossil collectors. The fossils aren't an issue with the landowners I have talked to for the most part they don't care about them. In the areas like I said here for the most part have more concerns dealing with their crops are what matter. I feel we need to put ourselves in the position of a land owner who is paying the tax and mortgage on that land. Like I said I am not judging I am giving my advice as Dan, John or any other member. That is why we have this forum and unless it is the law our opinions are just those opinions. Cheers to all.

[Xiphactinus]

danwoehr, on Jun 30 2009, 12:24 PM, said:

Any passion driven hobby involving removal of natural resources is sure to draw opinions from all sides. Allow me to expound on my personal observations. I have friends that for years have collected the Niobrara Chalk in KS for shark and mosasaur material and the Badlands of Nebraska for Oligocene terrestrial material. They used to get land access for the asking; now their options are limited. Why? Collecting rights are being leased. A similar situation has evolved here in Texas with deer hunting over the last 20-30 years. What was once every man's sport is now an aristocratic pursuit reserved for more well heeled folk. I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather not pay to play in the great outdoors and don't think you should have to either. Whether I plan to keep my finds, give some to the landowner, give some to my friends, give some to kids, donate a few, or sell a few, I think I'd be shooting all of us in the foot to make a landowner think he's sitting atop some sort of gold mine. The good thing is that most of my collecting takes place on public land or in quarries or construction sites where the question of economic value never comes up as those in charge are more concerned with avoiding injuries, littering, and vandalism. Now if you'll excuse me I have fossils to prep.....

Dan - Boy can I sympathize with your friends. We are no longer allowed to collect on one of our favorite ranches in Kansas because the fossil rights were leased to deep pockets. Grrrrrr. Problem is, Deep Pockets has leased more land than they can hunt, and fossils are eroding into dust every time it rains.