37 replies to this topic

[FossilForKids]

lawooten, on Jul 1 2009, 05:26 PM, said:

By all means everyone has their own way to approach a landowner about collecting although no one person can have the right approach for everyone. It is good to have other ideas because as we all know everyone we meet will not be the same. Land owners in the area I mentioned are farmers and have not the time to spend even to consider fossils anything other than old bones. But the land is theirs and some places that have closed to collecting are b/c of the abuse done to them by collectors. More and more restrictions are being set into place as we all know. You have to know your area and the people in your area when you approach them and how to approach it may be different in any given area. But as I said there is more than one approach and all should be there for people to choose which would be right for them. My way works for me and I can sure you I am making no judgments on any one or way I myself am giving information from my own years of experience in collecting artifacts, fossils, gems, and minerals that has worked for me as Dan has. I like to cover all my options. Newbie’s need to know different approaches and even ethical isn't a bad way or word. But giving advice one needs to take in considerations the negative effects also to collectors. None of us wants to hurt collecting yet it is not like it was in the past and places are closing to us because of some of the bad practices that have been happening as all of us know. The times are changing and with more and more people collecting things have to change to keep sites open. That’s my opinion and I am sticking to it. What is right for one person may not be right for another but in the end that is what will matter as even government is changing the way we once collected to how we collect today. I want my grandchildren to enjoy the freedom of collecting and ethical seems to me the right way for me. I have found that bringing children in this area for example to get permission is not good because then that landowner sees liability issues if a child gets hurt. But in this area collecting is done by digging and there is a very real safety issue to it. The perseveration of all future fossil collecting for everyone to me should be foremost the most important aspect to consider. I know from experience that landowners can be soured by bad experienced with fossil collectors. The fossils aren't an issue with the landowners I have talked to for the most part they don't care about them. In the areas like I said here for the most part have more concerns dealing with their crops are what matter. I feel we need to put ourselves in the position of a land owner who is paying the tax and mortgage on that land. Like I said I am not judging I am giving my advice as Dan, John or any other member. That is why we have this forum and unless it is the law our opinions are just those opinions. Cheers to all.

That is very well stated! For the record my "self-righteous" statement was aimed at Inyo for his abraisive comeback to Dan.....but definitely not at you. I really think the decision is based on each situation you encounter.
Some states say you can't collect at roadcuts but many people do anyway. Then they go on top of the road cut and that land is usually privately owned. Some people cross private land to get to waterways. As I said it isn't as black and white as it seems. It can be grey at times and that's when you have to decide as an individual what is right and wrong.

[rfossils]

Kudos to Dan. Having a copy of liability insurance (esp. a million dollars), covering specifics such as quarries has been useful to me. However, no one ever said no to the blue-eyed, blonde haired woman with the east Texas "twaing". And maybe her 7 year old son helped as well. I know by following the landowners rules will almost insure a return visit, sometimes even the keys to the gates, or a long term friendship.....

[Bear]

Each situation differs from the rest so each must be handled on the fly.

In the Eastern US a few years ago, we went looking for recent shells and such using Geological Survey data (usually outdated, of course) While staying at a (tick infested) state campground we were harshly informed that any fossils around were protected from collecting as they were a valuable natural resource. The ranger kind - of went on and on about that...sort - of a personal issue for him I suppose.

We got our specimens anyways, as that same park was grinding said fossils up and using them to pave the park roads. Some of the chunks were large and clean enough to procure. When I asked another ranger if it was OK to take a few pieces of the road bed for my sons fossil collection, he laughed loud and long before giving us the go - ahead to take home a few small pieces of "road gravel".

As for "honesty".....there is only one correct answer to give when your wife asks if that new dress makes her butt look too big, and it may not have anything at all to do with the truth.

I give minimal, reassuring information to the property owner. I do not go out looking for fossils to sell. I do not know what I am going to find that collecting day - if anything at all - or how fine a specimen it may or may not be. I am in the moment and open - that is part of the adventure for me. It would be a tad premature for me to detail what the ultimate fate of any finds I may procure will be before I even find them. Thus, I am looking in an educated and experienced manner for what I believe may be found at a particular site. I stress that I am very careful and am a responsible adult. I always go with my wife, son and dog. If there is any hitch at all, I am gone to the next spot on my list - no problem.

I love road cuts! I have had numerous roadside conversations with various police officers due to this practice, all of them positive. This also must be done correctly with an eye towards safety and not making a mess. It is one thing to pick up a couple of decent specimens and quite another thing to open up a large scale impromptu roadside mining operation.

There are pros and cons to commercial exploitation of a site as well. When my family and I went mineral collecting in the Bancroft, Ontario area, we hit a place in the deep woods called the Bear Creek Digs. Calcite intrusions loaded with tourmaline, sheet mica and apatite are there, and 'glory holers' had been there exploiting the veins for commercial specimens. They took the arm - sized crystals of tourmaline and apatite, leaving the finger sized crystals in their waste piles. Since they worked the veins - which averaged maybe 6 feet wide at the surface - down to a depth of maybe 10 feet, there was a lot of rotted calcite containing neat stuff that they tossed on the scrap heaps. A great collecting day for us, lots of fine specimens - including some facet grade apatite - to take home, and only one black bear came through that day. If it hadn't been for the commercial collectors hard work we wouldn't have found much at all that day.

Edited by Bear, 13 September 2009 - 10:21 AM.

[BobC]

Dan--I usually just storm up to the quarry owner and bellow "Let me in or I'M BURNING THIS DUMP DOWN!!"

This approach has been shockingly unsuccessful.

[lawooten]

BobC
And you are still here to tell about it? Now that is good.

[Bear]

*tries to imagine lighting a quarry on fire* (j/k)

[Search4]

I have been metal detecting all my life. A letter before hand to a private property owner is advised. When someone you don't recognize approaches your house it can be a little unsettling. These days there aren't too many door to door salesmen so don't expect to be greated as if you have the next thing that's going to replace sliced bread. Send a letter and mention in it that your requesting their permission to access their land but didn't want to be intrusive or rude by knocking on their door, out of the blue. Tell them a little about yourself, your hobby, and leave your number. If you have any chance of gaining their permission, then your chances are just as good for recieving a call back. Many people are phone shy, and find it easier to turn you down that way, but that's ok. I'd rather not get a call back then get permission on the spot because someone was too nervous to say no when you approached them, only to have a rough and tough family memeber or concerned neighbor come back later on while looking at you down the barrel of a gun and telling you to leave. (true story).

On commercial property, in urban areas, obey all posts and fences over three feet. If there is contact info on a sign somewhere then use it. If the site is not posted but there are buildings, out buildings, vehicles, or houses be weary. If the property is say, a dirt lot, not posted, debries fence, and no contact info, give it a shot but leave the tools in the car the first time out. Chances are that an owner, police officer, or neighbor may happen by. If someone finds you digging they may be suspicious of the possibility that your a serial killer disposing human remains or some very illegal substance. (true story while bottle digging private, vacant property without permission).

On commercial properties in rural areas, posted signs are key. If it appears that any effort has been made to deter trespassers its probably best to speak with locals that know the property. Don't venture deep into the woods if your not sure, dogs can run faster than you and so can bullets. Just use your head and tell yourself that there probably aren't any goodies there in the first place. At least thats what I think about when I talk myself out of diving for shark teeth in Venice. I mean really, do I want to get bit by a shark while hunting its darn teeth? LOL

Good luck to you all.

Edited by Search4, 23 September 2010 - 02:49 AM.

[E.T.]

I have 100% success in site permission so far. Of course I just asked my first private land owner today... It's a great little story so I will tell it.

I was driving home from school today just west of Caesar's Creek State Park north of Cincinnati, Ohio, and saw a big hill entirely exposed limestone with a little house at the top of the hill and a little dirt road on the right, stomped the brakes and swung into a driveway, walked up rang the doorbell and an old lady opens the door and immediately says "Come on in and get a cup of coffee". Her husband, comes in and directs me to the back porch and pulls up two chairs. We sit down and he asks me what I'm doing there. I tell him I want to collect fossils on his land if he is the owner of the hill, which he was. We start talking and two hours later I am amazed at the new friend I have. He is an 81 year old Austrian survivor of a German concentration camp. He was 12 when he was imprisoned there in 1941 when the Germans took Austria. He was in the camp until the end of WWII and moved to the US in 1950. We walked down the hill 5 feet past his back fence and the first rock I picked up was packed full of brachiopods and bryozoa. He has about 5 acres of hillside exposed limestone from the Ordovician and the hill hasn't been touched in 60 years. He said I can collect anything I want, anytime I want, just make sure I stop and talk to him sometimes, which I will be sure to do!

Lucky day or what...

Edited by E.T., 21 October 2010 - 02:28 AM.

[jpc]

Excellent story, E. T. Hopefully it'll lead to many more from the ole man. They sound like a great old couple.

[JohnJ]

That's great E.T. and such a small price to pay.

[tracer]

in a way, perhaps, luckier for him than for you. be sure and stop by and talk to him sometimes. you might have made his day by showing interest in him and indicating there is something special about his land. there are a lot of lonely people in the world.

[MikeD]

You will get some great stories and personal history lessons. Be sure to offer him some of your good finds.

[bruce]

I understand that one can legally collect invertebrates on BLM land, however if the land is leased for grazing or to ranchers, is it within their rights to restrict public access? (Not that i would want to argue with a rancher about collecting on his leased BLM land - but i wonder what the official position at BLM is?)

[Auspex]

The lease is for grazing, and does not include any other rights. I know a fellow who strayed onto leased BLM land from private land for which he had permission to collect (the lease was to the same rancher, and the boundary was unmarked). It was a world of trouble...

[Alphazeal]

What are the ethics behind finding major finds on the property?

[Ameuraman]

I have collected at road cuts and at construction sites around Kansas City and near Columbia, and to date have never had any problems. I started wearing fluorescent orange or green work shirts with vests and helmet, to get that semi-official highway worker look. So far, so good.
But when i was in Wyoming visiting my parents, i contacted the local BLM paleontologist to inquire about collecting plant fossils on BLM land near Worland in north central Wy. The Worland branch paleontologist gave me the location, told me I could collect as much as i wanted of the plant fossils, that if i dug deep holes,then fill them up so cattle or people don't break their legs stumbling into them. My dad and i found the site and dug some great fossils, but it was so cold and windy we didn't stay long. The BLM folks have been very helpful when I called to ask for info on collecting sites.

[drhemlock]

These techniques to a newcomer are essential and very informative and I have logged them into the brain locker for later. I hope to try this year to get out to some sites mostly road cuts and the like and try my luck. I wish there was some form of a letter that one can generate using word that would fit the bill for most if not all sites a general agreement letter spelling out the necessaries. Or is this to formal or upfront like was mentioned different strokes for different folks. I would like to have something I could keep in the car just in case, Are there lawyers out there?

Thanks
James

[kimmh]

that child with you is great as we went to a closed area in oregon as not one could get access and had the niece by hand and the owner was nice and even hooked us up with electricity and helped us collect fossil crabs and kept writing us to come up but he had bad migraine headaces and finally commited sucide darn, and now its closed again.
kimm.