docdutronc Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) Hi my friends Sometimes Sigillaria bark bears small millimetric holes of perforation. These holes are interpreted by a Russian collector (carbon1967), such as holes on the bark, where are outputs of insect larvae. Show me some holes of this activity !!!! Best regards Bruno Edited September 29, 2012 by docdutronc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Dactyll Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Bruno.... Fabulous specimen... and very clearly shows the perforation on the bark.... This wing is from Palaeodictyopteroid ..... I found out they apparently have a unique mouthpart morphology. Their clypeus is much enlarged, and they have a distinctive beak formed by five elongate, stiff elements. They were the first plant feeding insects and preseumably this beak was for sucking sap and they had palaeopterous wings which means they were unable to fold their wings back over their body when not in flight... The wings just moved up and down so the wings remained perminantly open... Patterning preserved on wings in the form of light and dark bands indicates that at least some palaeodictyopteroids were strikingly coloured with the biggest having over half a metre wingspan...they became extinct in the permian and its thought the demise was due to enviromental changes as well as the marked increase in the dragonfly species which would have found the slow moving palaeodictyopteroids easy prey as well as the replacement of early plants with more advanced forms with better protection against herbivores... Too small or a possibility? Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docdutronc Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) Hi Here are other specimens in the register of Lepidodendrons bark , these barks belong to one of my colleagues Hervé Duquesne, your answer Steeve is a possibility, I also think of the possibility of insects drills and sap-sucking like : Hemiptera (for example; bugs ....) Best regards Bruno Edited September 27, 2012 by docdutronc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockin' Ric Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Hi Here are other specimens in the register of Lepidodendrons bark , these barks belong to one of my colleagues Hervé Duquesne, your answer Steeve is a possibility, I also think of the possibility of insects drills and sap-sucking like : Hemiptera (for example; bugs ....) Best regards Bruno Bruno very nice Lepidodendron bark impressions! I swear on the second picture the image looks like little faces staring at you...does anyone else see it? WELCOME TO ALL THE NEW MEMBERS! If history repeats itself, I'm SO getting a dinosaur. ~unknown www.rockinric81.wixsite.com/fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockin' Chica Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Beautiful! Gratitude and Well Wishes! Ashley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Bruno, those pix are amazing! "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go. " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archimedes Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Very Nice Fossils and Pics, I do not know what the very small holes but thanks for sharing these pics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Looks like faces in a crowd. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgrilusHunter Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Hi Bruno, Great fossils! I agree they could be feeding traces of Palaeodictyoptera but they could be other things as well. Two things for sure are that the fine details in your specimens are simply amazing and that I'm consistently amazed by your posts. Thank you so much for letting us see these specimens. ... They were the first plant feeding insects and preseumably this beak was for sucking sap and they had palaeopterous wings which means they were unable to fold their wings back over their body when not in flight... The wings just moved up and down so the wings remained perminantly open... Patterning preserved on wings in the form of light and dark bands indicates that at least some palaeodictyopteroids were strikingly coloured with the biggest having over half a metre wingspan...they became extinct in the permian and its thought the demise was due to enviromental changes as well as the marked increase in the dragonfly species which would have found the slow moving palaeodictyopteroids easy prey as well as the replacement of early plants with more advanced forms with better protection against herbivores... Hi Terry, Great synopsis if the Palaeodictyoptera! However, I'm going to quibble with a few of your statements. Recent molecular studies have shown its likely that the earliest insects evolved somewhere around the Silurian/Devonian boundary (Gaunt and Miles 2002). This lends credence to a theory originally proposed by Tilyard in 1928 that true insects likely evolved from aquatic ancestors that had formed an ecological bond with certain early vascular plants. In fact, good evidence for herbivory can be correlated with some of the earliest plant macro-fossils known (Labandeira 2007). Taken as a whole this is strong evidence that some type of herbivorous insect existed much earlier than the Palaeodictyoptera. Also, I know of no evidence that the Palaeodictyoptera were 'slow movers', despite their appearance. To the contrary, the high oxygen content of the time period may have ensured they were as speedy as modern Odonates. I am more inclined to support an extinction theory that centers on climate change and, as you accurately pointed out, the evolution of more advanced plants. Humans have proven quite clearly that habitat destruction is the single easiest way to exterminate a species. I think this effect is the prime culprit in many past extinctions as well. Gaunt, M. W., and Miles, M. A. (2002). An insect molecular clock dates the origin of the insects and accords with palaeontological and biogeographic landmarks. Molecular biology and evolution, 19(5): 748–61. Labandeira, C. (2007). The origin of herbivory on land: Initial patterns of plant tissue consumption by arthropods. Insect Science 14(4): 259–275. Tilyard, R. J. (1928). Some remarks on the Devonian fossil insects from the Rhynie Chert beds, old red sandstone. Transactions of the Entomological Society of London 76: 65–71. "They ... savoured the strange warm glow of being much more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant of ordinary things." -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Bruno very nice Lepidodendron bark impressions! I swear on the second picture the image looks like little faces staring at you...does anyone else see it? Looks like faces in a crowd. Yeah, I guess I saw them too. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullsnake Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Bruno very nice Lepidodendron bark impressions! I swear on the second picture the image looks like little faces staring at you...does anyone else see it? Yeah, I guess I saw them too. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docdutronc Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 quote "they could be other things as well" This bark morph: Syringodendron, from Liévin basin, whose ribs separated by wide straight furrows, shows off the finely wrinkled ornamentation, a series of seven millimeter perforations. The interpretation of these openings is to be pathological relationship with traces of perforation of insects . This decortication is assigned to the species S. laevigata Brongniart. very common in this basin . In my opinion, these holes are caused by biting mouthparts with a long snout whose the insects of the order Hemiptera of feature are provided. Bugs for example 90 ° / ° of Representatives are phytophagous. some are Phloemophagous, they feed on phloem tissue, others are succivorous or opophagous , which feed on the sap of plants. quote : " the image looks like little faces staring at you " Scream movie !!! is coming back :rofl: Best regards Bruno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Dactyll Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 ''Hi Terry, Great synopsis if the Palaeodictyoptera! However, I'm going to quibble with a few of your statements.'' Thanks for the update... certainly food for thought.... better make it salad .... Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgrilusHunter Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 quote "they could be other things as well" This bark morph: Syringodendron, from Liévin basin, whose ribs separated by wide straight furrows, shows off the finely wrinkled ornamentation, a series of seven millimeter perforations. The interpretation of these openings is to be pathological relationship with traces of perforation of insects . This decortication is assigned to the species S. laevigata Brongniart. very common in this basin . In my opinion, these holes are caused by biting mouthparts with a long snout whose the insects of the order Hemiptera of feature are provided. Bugs for example 90 ° / ° of Representatives are phytophagous. some are Phloemophagous, they feed on phloem tissue, others are succivorous or opophagous , which feed on the sap of plants. quote : " the image looks like little faces staring at you " Scream movie !!! is coming back :rofl: Best regards Bruno Hi Bruno, The Hemiptera had not yet evolved during the time period these plants were living, they could no have created the traces you are finding. The extinct order Protohemiptera was a possibility but there is some discussion of late that this is an artificial inflation and the group should be synonymized with the Palaeodictyoptera. As Terry pointed, this pathology would most likely be associated with the Palaeodictyoptera. However, there were other organisms during this time period with elongate piercing mouthparts that are NOT insects, many of the mites are a good example. Care has to be taken when assigning cause to this effect, there are too many unknowns. "They ... savoured the strange warm glow of being much more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant of ordinary things." -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docdutronc Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 quote : "Hi Bruno, The Hemiptera had not yet evolved during the time period these plants were living, they could no have created the traces you are finding. The extinct order Protohemiptera was a possibility but there is some discussion of late that this is an artificial inflation and the group should be synonymized with the Palaeodictyoptera. As Terry pointed, this pathology would most likely be associated with the Palaeodictyoptera. However, there were other organisms during this time period with elongate piercing mouthparts that are NOT insects, many of the mites are a good example. Care has to be taken when assigning cause to this effect, there are too many unknowns." Hi AgrilusHunter I took note of your remarks, however this paper suggests the presence of the order Hemiptera from the Carboniferous to the present day.???? best regards Bruno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgrilusHunter Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 (edited) Hi Bruno, I have this book on my desk right now. Gullan and Cranston have grouped proto-orders with extant orders, for example the Protohemiptera and Hemiptera or the Protoorthoptera and Orthoptera. Unfortunately, this results in a very misleading table. The earliest Paraneoptera, the monophyletic superorder that includes the modern Hemiptera, likely evolved during the middle Carboniferous. This does NOT mean that Hemiptera were present during this time period, only their very distant ancestors. The radiation of the Paraneoptera did not occur until the middle Permian. A better reference for insect evolution is: Grimaldi, D. & Engel, M. S. 2005. Evolution of the Insects. xv + 755 pp. Cambridge, New York, Melbourne: Cambridge University Press. Edited September 28, 2012 by AgrilusHunter "They ... savoured the strange warm glow of being much more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant of ordinary things." -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgrilusHunter Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 (edited) Hi Bruno, In looking through my copy of Gullan and Cranston I realized my table was different than your's. I then checked the edition and lo and behold mine is the fourth edition. Here is the same table as it appears in the fourth edition of the text published in 2010. Amazing how fast these things can change huh? Edited September 28, 2012 by AgrilusHunter "They ... savoured the strange warm glow of being much more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant of ordinary things." -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docdutronc Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) Hi my friends Yes , that is amazing how fast these things can change ..... I downloaded this fourth edition, it is very informative..... I can not help but I think of the plant animal interaction, the disappearance of the Palaeodictyoptera and the great Lycophytes like (Lepidodendron, sigillaria) is disturbing, simple random or correlation , no??? Best regards Bruno Edited September 30, 2012 by docdutronc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgrilusHunter Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Hi my friends Yes , that is amazing how fast these things can change ..... I downloaded this fourth edition, it is very informative..... I can not help but I think of the plant animal interaction, the disappearance of the Palaeodictyoptera and the great Lycophytes like (Lepidodendron, sigillaria) is disturbing, simple random or correlation , no??? Best regards Bruno Hi Bruno, You bring up an excellent point. We may never know just how interconnected these organisms were. Its possible they all died out because of environmental change. However, I find your idea that the extinction of one or the other caused a collapse in the ecosystem very intriguing, and equally plausible. Much to ponder about for sure, but that's why I'm drawn to it. "They ... savoured the strange warm glow of being much more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant of ordinary things." -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 (edited) Just because there are no fossil records, to date, doesn't mean they weren't there. Something for sure drilled those holes there. New fossils are found every year. See quote below. Edited October 3, 2012 by Herb "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go. " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Bruno, I will examine my plants, if I find anything I will post the pix. Best regards. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go. " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgrilusHunter Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 (edited) Just because there are no fossil records, to date, doesn't mean they weren't there. Something for sure drilled those holes there. New fossils are found every year. See quote below. Yes, as your signature points out, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. However, current timelines are based on fossil insect evidence, fossil plant evidence, and molecular clock data for insects and plants. Furthermore, The coal fields around the world are some of the most heavily researched and collected fossil deposits. All of that accumulated effort has never produced evidence that those groups of insects were present during the Carboniferous. Why choose doubt instead of trusting the evidence that does exist? Edited October 3, 2012 by AgrilusHunter "They ... savoured the strange warm glow of being much more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant of ordinary things." -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docdutronc Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 quote : " I will examine my plants, if I find anything I will post the pix" Yes Herb show me .... .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgrilusHunter Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 (edited) Yes Herb show me .... Ahhh ... there we go! That looks a good candidate for arthropod feeding damage, possibly one of the Protorthoptera like a Geraridae. Great specimen and thanks for sharing! Edit: Is this a Liniopteris? I've still got some learning to do with these different plants that's for sure. Edited October 3, 2012 by AgrilusHunter "They ... savoured the strange warm glow of being much more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant of ordinary things." -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docdutronc Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Hi my friends Yes it is a Linopteris sub brongniarti Grand'Eury ,this leaf shows typical anastamosous veins ..... best regards Bruno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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