Fossil Hunters Damage Rare Sites.

[micropterus101]

Wow. I also have been attacked by "profesional" Paleos in the past. 90 percent of the fossils i collect would roll around on the beach until reduced to sand or freeze thaw in a small creek until it became part of a gravel bar. But still some are less then cooperative with new finds, and some have flat out threatened me with nasty grams especially about the Aturia angustata i collect on private property in a spot they past up on a 2007 trip. There know it all, closed minded attitudes prevented them from making a pretty cool discovery. But we amatuers dont know Jack about collecting fossils do we. If i sound sour your right I stretched my hand out to many times it was bitten off. Theres only one that will ever get a snidbit of info from me anymore and thank goodness hes an invert guy.

When i see articles like this i will always side with the collectors unless they can show actual commercial damage

[32fordboy]

Bear-dog, I talk to Frank on occasion, and have a HUGE respect for the guy as an "ameteur" paleontologist. His career has been amazing. You both are very lucky to have worked at the pits.

That said, it is very unfortunate when the horns lock between "pros" and "ameteurs". I hunt an area of White River in Colorado. The landowners won't ever let the "pros" on their property again, but us "ameteurs" are just fine. How's that for a twist? The landowners don't hunt fossils, they just didn't like the elitist attitude of the museum personnel. Us ameteurs have to win some, too.

[jbswake]

I looked Mr Garcia up. He sounds like the real fossil nut. That you let everyone know there was more to the find than was publicised was great. They do like to control the flow of information. I hope the book that will soon be published will give better light on those professionals that take us amateurs for granted.

[32fordboy]

He is a fossil nut. He'll admit it.

[bear-dog]

A fossil nut dosen't even come close.He will keep you in stitches.Even when we hunted Caloosa Shell Pit,I could wake up too sick to move and still battle the heat to dig with him.A 5 star kind of guy.

[bear-dog]

Frank and dog made the headlines again.His dog found a giant land tortoise in Ruskin.[Like Father,like....

[fossisle]

Seems I am a little late in joining this post and site. I collect at this site. I work as the guide at it. Our commercial operation consists of one of the claim owners and myself. It would seem that the posts on this topic have a negative view of what we are doing. We run a fossil tour where a customers have an educational introduction, are set up with some tools and a bag, and get to dig for a few hours and keep the common specimens they find. Every once in a while the claim owners will get a request from someone looking for a museum quality specimen. As long as it has already been published and is in the various collections, they do sell those specimens. The claim owners have handed in over 500 specimens to science. Both have a plant species named in their honour. I collect the insects in particular. Science has over 250 of my specimens including a new genus of flower, a new genus of crayfish, and one insect named in my honour. If a person finds something rare or new, we photograph the person with their find and collect it from them along with their contact information. We then donate the fossil to the local university on the finders behalf. If it gets studied, we contact the finder to let them know what is happening with their find. We have an agreement with the government that was negotiated with the scientific community including the Royal BC Museum. We do not wholesale large amounts of prisitine plates for sale on the open market. We turn people onto fossil digging in the hot sun. The normal size of our plates are 10cm by 10 cm because of all the tectonic action in the recent past that broke up the fossil; beds. We have 30metres of fossils and about 400 metres of outcrop. It is only one of 11 exposures of the same lakebed in the area. We host upwards of 20 school groups a year and many budding palentologists. The scientists who is making these claims of destruction wants the exposure for himself. He actually got his phd based on specimens he collected from the site and ones I donated. But we are this big company of two people who share their love with fossils with anybody who is interested and they get to keep a few. And we have millions. They are everywhere. The only reason there has been so much interest in it is because of all the donations we have made to science. And there is supposed to be a paper naming three new birds from our site soon. One is a new genus too. We sell tours and the occasional fossil. And each year we get closer to covering the costs of opening the site up to the public.

Hey it looks like the paper naming the crayfish just came out in this month's Journal of Crustacean Biology.

Also isn't there a similar deposit with fossils just east of MacAbee that is being mined as kitty litter, how about the destruction of all those possible amazing finds.

The owner's of the MacAbee site have donated a ton of excellent specimen's over the years and are front and center in bringing fossil education to the public. If they sell a few fish to cover expenses so what!

[jbswake]

Yes, the paper with the crayfish has been released in the May edition. I'm the third author. All 18 specimens used in the study were found by myself, my friend and claim owner, Dave, and 2 other people who found one each. This is a big thrill for me. My only regret is my best friend, Dave, died suddenly last Tuesday. His memorial service was today. What we have been working to achieve is now up in the air. I don't know what will happen. He was the nicest person who constantly shared his passion with everyone that would listen. We were working on getting investors so we could build a museum and gift shop at the base. I also wanted there to be a prep room that people could see into to see the prepping being done or even try themself on a piece they find. Now I don't know if I am going to be able to collect from there again. I am very sad for his family. His wife is lovely and loved Dave very much.

On another note though: we do not sell the insect specimens until we are given the go ahead, which we have never received. Selling them can break the agreement. The book about how poorly some amateur collectors in BC have been treated by the professionals is just about to go to the printer. The picture is of the Cimbrophlebia leahyi, my bug. It is a 5.5cm scorpion fly.

[piranha]

Sorry to hear of the sad news. Each of us here extend our heart-felt condolences to you.

We sincerely hope you will gather your resources and pursue this great dream to success.

[palaeopix]

Yes, the paper with the crayfish has been released in the May edition. I'm the third author. All 18 specimens used in the study were found by myself, my friend and claim owner, Dave, and 2 other people who found one each. This is a big thrill for me. My only regret is my best friend, Dave, died suddenly last Tuesday. His memorial service was today. What we have been working to achieve is now up in the air. I don't know what will happen. He was the nicest person who constantly shared his passion with everyone that would listen. We were working on getting investors so we could build a museum and gift shop at the base. I also wanted there to be a prep room that people could see into to see the prepping being done or even try themself on a piece they find. Now I don't know if I am going to be able to collect from there again. I am very sad for his family. His wife is lovely and loved Dave very much.

On another note though: we do not sell the insect specimens until we are given the go ahead, which we have never received. Selling them can break the agreement. The book about how poorly some amateur collectors in BC have been treated by the professionals is just about to go to the printer. The picture is of the Cimbrophlebia leahyi, my bug. It is a 5.5cm scorpion fly.

I'm really sorry to hear that Dave passed away! I never got the chance to meet him and I'm sure he'll be missed by the paleontological community, such as it is, here in British Columbia.

On a lighter note, congratulations on your crayfish paper! I look forward to reading it when I can get my hands on a copy. I believe I had the honor of meeting you at the McAbee site several years ago and we talked briefly about the crayfish and some of the insect finds.

Dan

[Frank Menser]

I'm kind of on the fence about this one. Two very valid points are being made here.

yes it is true that commercial collectors --and some amateurs as well-- are not good neighbors and over collect or destroy through greed, or ignorance important scientific specimens.

But, I have been witness to the same kind of destruction done by museum parties with their volunteers and have seen sites (particularly in Florida) where collecting has been banned because of their abuses. Here in NC, I see collectors overmining the dumps at Aurora Museum taking hundreds of teeth from a place that is supposed to be for children to collect for fun. You have to ask; how many examples of the same species do they really need?

It is also true that sites are weathering away, with lots of fossils being lost to nature, because of anti-collecting legislation.

Personally, I would not want to mine a place that required specialised skills I don't have. I'd rather buy from the museum -- or a professional, than damage something through my own lack of skill or ignorance.

The only reasonable thing to do is; to allow collecting with 'bag limits'. That way it becomes less profitable for the Harvest miners.

I don't approve of the museums deciding what fossils may be kept by those who put in the work to find them. Sorry, I think compensation to the finder would smooth a lot of ruffled feathers.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Frank Menser

[Auspex]

Neither "side" can just paint the other with a broad brush and walk away; there are as many goals and circumstances as there are stakeholders.

[fossisle]

Yes I am very sorry to hear about Dave, I met him at a symposium in Kamloops many years ago and remember him as a great fossil ambassador .

[Guest N.AL.hunter]

http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Evolutionary+answers+McAbee+fossil+beds+deserve+protection/3290810/story.html

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/clad/strategic_land/fossil/mcabee.html

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/clad/strategic_land/fossil/mcabee_fossil_site_assessment_report.pdf

Edited April 19, 2011 by N.AL.hunter

[palaeopix]

http://www.vancouver...0810/story.html

http://www.agf.gov.b...sil/mcabee.html

http://www.agf.gov.b...ment_report.pdf

Thanks for providing the links above.

Please see this LINK for further information and to continue this discussion. I would like to avoid the "he said...she said" discussion about the McAbee site on this thread. Afterall, I started this thread to showcase the fossils and to remember Dave Langevin!

Another thread here on the Fossil Forum that addresses the issue is the What's the deal with the Burgess Shale?

Thanks,

Dan

EDIT: This, and the two related posts have been moved to the topic you now find them in, for continuity and to preserve the tribute nature of the originating topic.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Auspex

[jbswake]

The final document mentioned in the links was replaced with an amended/corrected copy a few months after this came out. This document was the beginning of the backlash on me by some scientists because it mentioned in a picture caption about the flats of fossils I had for sale when in fact I had them stored for science and donation to our local university. I even told Mark Wilson this when he visited me at my house. All the fossils in those flats had been catalogued and photographed. At that time I had about 4000 in the collection with 50 already donated and 125 waiting for the scientists to visit to pick them up. Each year's collection was then burned onto 3 cds and sent to all the interested scientists and each of the BCPA societies. Several scientists would swing by my house to personally pick specimens up that they had seen on the cds. I had spent hours doing this and when this came out I was blackballed. I couldn't be a member of the BC Paleo Alliance, where I had been the editor of the provincial newsletter for 2 years, I couldn't be president of our local Thompson Nicola Paleo Society which I had been for over 2 years, and I got angry and refused to share anymore specimens with those scientists. We have been undeer attack for years. Certain 'professionals' do not want any type of compromise. The fact that they had the specimens in the first place to work with was because of Dave's generosity. Several 'professionals' have staked their career on Mcabee because they get so many specimens to peruse without doing any or very little fieldwork. The specimens come to them and they are very happy with this arrangement. A few unfortunately are not and they think that they will effect government decision making by standing on top of the tallest soapbox they can find and shout their message out as loud and as long as they can. However, the MOU is in place and that takes precedence over any new decision. They will have to revisit that document to effect any changes. And that document was arrived at by representatives of the BCPA, the Royal BC Museum, the government, anf the claim owners.

[jbswake]

Thanks for providing the links above.

Please see this LINK for further information and to continue this discussion. I would like to avoid the "he said...she said" discussion about the McAbee site on this thread. Afterall, I started this thread to showcase the fossils and to remember Dave Langevin!

Another thread here on the Fossil Forum that addresses the issue is the What's the deal with the Burgess Shale?

Thanks,

Dan

EDIT: This, and the two related posts have been moved to the topic you now find them in, for continuity and to preserve the tribute nature of the originating topic.

My apologies. Thanks for doing this. Dave's tribute is too important for this discussion.

[palaeopix]

My apologies. Thanks for doing this. Dave's tribute is too important for this discussion.

No need to apologize John.

Your views are just as valid as those on the other side of the fence. I'm glad that Chas moved our posts to this thread as it is a more appropriate venue.

Dan

[jbswake]

Here was another article on the site:

Destruction of fossil bed akin to ransacking of library of Alexandria

By Stephen Hume, Vancouver Sun February 13, 2010

You can Google it if you want to read it. However, you get an idea of the tone by the words used in the heading.

Here are a couple of those tiny flies that only professionals are apparently interested in!

Edited April 25, 2011 by jbswake

[jbswake]

There's another article from the Vancouver Sun for those of you who have joined this topic recently.

Critic picks a bone with fossil-protection pact

Larry Pynn, Vancouver Sun

Published: Friday, October 24, 2008

And just so you know: of the 5 who signed it: two visited the site once and most of the specimens they looked at I gave to them, one visited the site after the letter, one has never been at the site, and the other is Archibald. You should have seen the letter. I am trying to get a copy of it from Linda.

Edited April 25, 2011 by jbswake

[jbswake]

And there was another article that appeared:

McAbee fossil bed not being protected

By Stephen Hume, Vancouver SunMarch 28, 2009

Of course, we amateurs can not collect with the same expertise as the professionals. We wouldn't know an obscure specimen if it fell into our collection boxes!

Edited April 25, 2011 by jbswake

[jbswake]

Now please keep in mind that Dave staked the site in 1991. Prior to this, 3 papers were written about the site: a study of the strata and its relative age, a Wilson mention on the fish and insects he collected there, and a Master's thesis done by a student of Wilson's. The next paper did not show up until 1996. That is when the new species began to be published. Still no one was really collecting there. Dave encouraged interest by donating lots of specimens. Many of the specimens on the evolvingearth.org site are credited to Dave. In 2004 Dillhoff and Manchester rewarded Dave by naming the Fagus langevini after him. And that was the year the papers started coming out with more regularity. The latest paper names a new genus of crayfish. Dave's find is the holotype. He also handed in the specimen that became the Ulmus okanaganensis. Dave's responsibility to the science is what has opened the door for these attacks. All he ever wanted to do is share his love of fossils with young and old, novice and expert. He was an inspiration to many.

Edited April 25, 2011 by jbswake

[bear-dog]

Sorry to say,I've never heard of him before.But will say he appears to be a champion to everyone that loves fossils.Need more like him.

[Wrangellian]

I'm afraid to stick my nose any further into this, but, is it not true that amateurs who collect don't take all the data that could/should be taken for science? I agree that amateurs should be allowed to collect at sites like this, at least the stuff the professionals dont want, but it seems that any time commercial interests get into something, other things are adversely affected. I'm appreciative of Dave for allowing me to collect there on different occasions, but I can't say that I have recorded all the data that a scientist could use with my specimens, likewise for every other specimen I see distributed far and wide via ebay etc. And I wonder how much was lost when the access road up to the site was bulldozed.

It should not be forgotten that, as you say John, amateurs have made a large contribution to science just by showing their specimens to the right people, and should not be treated as nobodies in return, and collectable fossils should never be left to disintegrate in the field. I like the idea of a permanent professional on site to supervise the amateurs collecting.

There must be a solution that works for everybody... maybe we'll never know what that is until it goes before a judge, because apparently nobody currently involved is capable of coming to an agreement on their own.

[palaeopix]

Up till now I've remained pretty quiet about the topic at hand, but after reading many of the stories provided in the various links plus the first hand accounts, I felt it was time to throw my two cents into the pot. First let me say that I find many of the news paper articles disturbingly one sided! I have visited the McAbee site only once to collect, but have driven by the exposure many times and I can say with all honesty that the site has not been destroyed! I find the sensationalistic headlines distasteful and take offense to whomever suggests that we "amateurs" are raping and pillaging the site! How is it that a person with a piece of paper, with a fancy degree on it, thinks they can dictate (or try to dictate) how such a resource like the McAbee Fossil Beds be used? Last time I checked, the people of British Columbia are the rightful owners of the fossils. I'm frankly tired of being treated like a nobody because I'm an "amateur" paleontologist. Sites like McAbee would go un-noticed if it were not for us "amateurs"! If we were not out there collecting, what would become of the fossils? I'll tell what would happen! They would be left to fade back into obscurity! The state of paleontology in British Columbia is still in its infancy and we do not have the money or qualified bodies to tackle all of our special fossil bearing sites. Why remove the "amateur" from the equation? Amateur collectors make many important discoveries each and every year and do it at their own expense!

Dan

Edited April 23, 2011 by palaeopix