48 replies to this topic

[MikeDOTB]

Frank Menser, on Jul 6 2009, 02:28 PM, said:

It was in their 'Friends of the Museum' news letter about the teeth. Andrea will sure appreciate that!

Never seen a Moccasin up here (saw plenty in S. Fla) So as a snake spotter you're ahead of me!

Yep, I have seen two now. Fortunately only two, I have read a lot of trip reports where people have seen a bunch just in one day.

[MikeD]

Nice teeth!

[Shamalama]

Great finds and congrats to Irradiatus on his first successful trip and finds! These were all creek and spoil pile finds?

[Irradiatus]

Shamalama, on Jul 6 2009, 05:29 PM, said:

Great finds and congrats to Irradiatus on his first successful trip and finds! These were all creek and spoil pile finds?

Yep - all day Friday (sun up to sun down) at the spoil piles in Aurora, then most of the day at GMR on Saturday. I (we) had to quit early on Saturday, as I reached a point at which I could barely lift a soda can to my mouth, much less a sifter full of creek stuff...

Talk about outta shape!

As per the talk of snakes, I'd like to mention a couple things about the cottonmouth (based on often heard snake cliches).
(Warning: total dorky off-topic tangent here. But you guys brought it up )

1) Every body has heard it "Cottonmouths are ornery, aggressive, mean, etc."

This is almost completely an old wives tale (or at least VERY exaggerated).

They get this reputation because they have been known to "hold their ground" when threatened, displaying their gaping white mouths (hence the common name). However, their aggressiveness has actually been tested scientifically. In this study [link], over 50% of the snakes chose to run away when threatened, while the rest made threatening displays. Only a third actually bit a fake hand when it was stuck in their face (quite amazing result actually).

Similarly, I've accidentally kicked a timber rattlesnake while tracking Timber Rattlers in the Ozarks, resulting in the classic rattler display - but luckily no bite. Timber Rattlers are even more likely to high-tail it when threatened. None of these snakes want to be anywhere near people.

These are all still dangerous snakes to be respected (e.g. don't step on one). But I think the fear most humans have of these snakes is way overblown and needs to stop being fostered, especially considering reptile decline worldwide.

2) No North American snake will ever chase you. Yeah - I'm sure a couple of you have stories of being chased by racers or whatever. I'm afraid this is simply mistaking and anthropomorphizing the snakes' behavior. The fact is, snakes - when the flight instinct kicks in - simply bolt in whatever direction they can - often even if that is right toward you. They have absolutely no instinct to chase after gigantic things they think are trying to kill them. They are pretty dumb animals when it comes down to it.

FYI: I worked in a lab filled with hundreds of various rattlers, cottonmouths, and copperheads at the U of Arkansas back in the day. I also radio-tracked these cool critters in the wild to study behavior/habitat use/physiology.

[Irradiatus]

Also, in the vein of the whole "snakes won't chase you" thing, I think MikeDOTB should tell the giant spider story from this weekend. It would be quite entertaining. If you don't, I will - and I'm sure my version would be even more entertaining

[cloudyhere]

Thanks for the snake info Irradiatus! Do you know anything about the venomous snakes in the Mojave? I'm thinking of heading out there in a few weeks and snakes are definitely something I'm wary of.

Also, this is an awesome trip report! Looks like the both of you had a good time and came back with tons of great specimens

[Irradiatus]

cloudyhere, on Jul 6 2009, 07:18 PM, said:

Thanks for the snake info Irradiatus! Do you know anything about the venomous snakes in the Mojave? I'm thinking of heading out there in a few weeks and snakes are definitely something I'm wary of.

Also, this is an awesome trip report! Looks like the both of you had a good time and came back with tons of great specimens

Wariness is a good thing. It's hatred and pure irrational fear that gets me...

If you're lucky, you'll see a sidewinder! They're pretty wicked looking beasts. [link]
Sidewinder:
The mohave also has the Northern Mohave Rattlesnake [link], the famous Western Diamondback Rattlesnake [link], and the Speckled Rattlesnake [link].

The message on each of those sites says it best: "Rattlesnakes are important members of the natural community. They will not attack, but if disturbed or cornered, they will defend themselves. Reasonable watchfulness should be sufficient to avoid snakebite. Give them distance and respect."

The main things are 1) watch your step, 2) make a little noise to give the snakes time to warn you where they are, 3) do NOT put any part of your body under rocks, limbs, or anything that you can't see beneath/around. Use a stick or something to check rocks/seating areas. And for goodness sake's take some pics if you see any cool snakes/critters!

Also, check your belongings for scorpions (you probably have more of a chance of running across these guys). I've been stung multiple times. Hurts like the dickens. (Note: if you have access to a handheld UV lamp (blacklight) walk around with it at night and you can see scorpions glow, due to a fluorescent molecule in the hyaline layer of their cuticles. It's pretty sweet! They continue to glow after death and even fossilized, because the hyaline layer of the cuticle lasts millions of years!):

Watch out for the Arizona Bark Scorpion. Quoth wikipedia: "The bark scorpion is the most venomous scorpion in North America, and its venom can cause severe pain (coupled with numbness and tingling) in adult humans, typically lasting between 24 to 72 hours. Temporary dysfunction in the area stung is common; e.g. a hand or possibly arm can be immobilized or experience convulsions. It also may cause the loss of breath for a short period of time. Due to the extreme pain induced, many victims describe sensations of electrical jolts after envenomation." Thankfully - I've never been stung by that one.

Have fun!

[MikeDOTB]

Lets not talk about the spider story. LOL

As for snakes, the best thing is to just leave them alone or admire them from a distance. Sometimes you cant do that because you accidentally stumble upon them. And all snakes I dont believe will just tuck tail and "slither". Even if its in the wrong direction (towards you). I am referring to a different GMR trip where another fossil hunter and I watched a water moccasin swim a wide circle around us, and then turn and make a beeline right at me very quickly and didnt stop for nothing. Well, it eventually stopped but not on its own free will. Granted I have seen snakes hold there ground and make threatening displays. Yes most will run err slither, some will make threatening displays, and some will move in your direction. Even if they are not coming after you, so to speak, they are certainly making the wrong decision and if something that is poisonous retreats in your direction you can still call that advancing and having something that could cause you harm, right next to you, and if your not in the best place to run away, you have a problem. So granted they might not be "chasing you" but if they are slithering in your direction then it is really in the eye of the beholder and witnesses.

I believe that every animal can be aggressive, even if it is highly uncharacteristic of it or its species.

Ok fine as far as the spider, as me and Daniel were walking upstream to a new spot we got into some deep water. So waist deep in water we got to this spot with a lot of overhanging branches and vines and alot of leaves/branches that had congregated in the water, so i went first and started cleaning it out. so we could pass through. Carefully though as it was definitely one of those spots that says "Be Careful". Well I start moving the branches and wood and next thing I know Daniel says "Ummm something big just brushed against my leg, and it wasnt a fish". And then I turn around to see a giant wolf spider run out next to me. I HATE WOLF SPIDERS. Miserable things. And its big. Easily 4" including leg span. So I immediately make the decision to dispatch it with my shovel. Only one problem, I missed. So once I struck the bank where it was sitting only a couple feet from me, I lift the shovel up to hopefully see the dead spider. Instead, it leaps off the bank, comes flying across the water and I start splashing at it to try to get it to go in another direction instead of at me! Well I lost sight of it in the splashing water and the next thing I know, its climbing up my waders! Well that is about when I freaked out, yelled get off me, swatted at it, and hopefully at that point I swatted it across the creek and it decided I wasnt worth its time. Either way I spent the next minute or two swatting myself of where it could be and shaking my fishing vest and praying it wasnt still on me. I can only imagine Daniels amusement at this point.

Now that this discussion has been brought up, has anyone had any past instances with a snake that could be construed as the snake being aggressive, not just holding its ground, but moving in your direction even when it had the option to move off in any other direction? If anyone has, share the story!

[Irradiatus]

lol!!

Great job Mike. It made me laugh out loud just remembering it as you rehashed it. The deep voiced, yet girlish, "get off me!!" part was the best.

Seriously though - I woulda done the same thing. It was a huge spider!

I still don't know what hit my leg (it was a definite hit and not a brush). And when I said it wasn't a fish - I meant not a little minnow or sunfish pecking at me - I know what that feels like. Perhaps it was one of those big eels bumping into me I was standing perfectly still...

[MikeDOTB]

Irradiatus, on Jul 6 2009, 09:42 PM, said:

lol!!

Great job Mike. It made me laugh out loud just remembering it as you rehashed it. The deep voiced, yet girlish, "get off me!!" part was the best.

Seriously though - I woulda done the same thing. It was a huge spider!

I still don't know what hit my leg (it was a definite hit and not a brush). And when I said it wasn't a fish - I meant not a little minnow or sunfish pecking at me - I know what that feels like. Perhaps it was one of those big eels bumping into me I was standing perfectly still...

Yeah I dont mind spiders from a distance, (remember I pointed out the cool water spiders) but for some reason I just hate wolf spiders. It was definitely a large one, but then again they can have a body an inch and a half long, plus 2"+ leg spans and that makes a pretty big spider for the east coast. Yeah well the last thing I expected was for it to be crawling up my waders LOL. And yes the "Get off Me"! Well, as I said, I hate them.

Yeah I was thinking about that as well, and it definitely could have been an eel. That was definitely a better area for them, since it was easily 3 1/2' deep water, murky and very shaded. And eels can get a lot bigger then the ones we saw swimming around that day. They are pretty cool though.

But who knows what it could have been, maybe it was a piece of driftwood that I knocked loose, but it could have been an animal, you never know. LOL.

[MikeDOTB]

Irradiatus, on Jul 6 2009, 09:42 PM, said:

lol!!

Great job Mike. It made me laugh out loud just remembering it as you rehashed it. The deep voiced, yet girlish, "get off me!!" part was the best.

Seriously though - I woulda done the same thing. It was a huge spider!

I still don't know what hit my leg (it was a definite hit and not a brush). And when I said it wasn't a fish - I meant not a little minnow or sunfish pecking at me - I know what that feels like. Perhaps it was one of those big eels bumping into me I was standing perfectly still...

LOL, giant spiders and things that "bump into your leg", I think that is why I still wear waders even in the summer. LOL

[Frank Menser]

I will preface this by pointing out to those who may not be familiar with me, that I have worked with snakes as a curator, breeder and hunter for almost 40 years. That being said I have to agree with most of what Irratiatus said above. However, one point needs clarification.

Black racers and some water snakes (specifically the banded) employ a defensive move where they will dart straight at you. This is not an 'attack' but rather (IMO) an instinctive response to a threat. By charging, the object is to surprise the attacker who hopefully will freeze for a second or even step backwards giving the snake that chance to escape. I have seen water snakes do this so often it is almost a rule (I have not ever seen a Moc do this) that it is a water snake and not a Moc.

Racers are very intelligent for snakes. In Florida I have caught them staring in my window watching me on a number of occasions. Sometimes that direction they take towards you is out of curiosity-not malice.

Cobras however, are notorious for agressive defensiveness. They will on occasion actively attack if threatened. Anyone who has workd with them can testify to their high intelligence and problem solving abilities.

I have also experienced an attack by a captive Atheris squmager (an African Bush viper) who (though only 11 inches long) repeatedly struck at me as it quickly moved towards me even though it had plenty of room to retreat.

As far as native snakes go, I have never ran into an aggressive Moccasin. So far the Copperheads (including the one that ran over my boot last year) have tried to retreat rather than fight. The same goes for Timber rattlers. Corals retreat and if cornered go into a twitch with the aim of confusing the attacker as to what is head and what's tail.

The only native (eastern) snake that I have seen seriously stand it's ground is the Diamondback. As for Western Rattlers, what little experience I have had with them has been in captive situations, so I withold comment.

[MikeDOTB]

Now in doing a lot of online research about snakes, I read somewhere that water moccasins and maybe this is true for many other snakes, that a high percentage of their strikes, are dry bites being they dont actually use there fangs but just sort of "gum you to death" for lack of a better phrase... Is that true?

[MikeDOTB]

Hey Frank, I just realized your from Ayden, NC. Your right in the middle of things when it comes to GMR and Aurora. Do you get out to do much fossil hunting?

[Auspex]

They may withhold venom (which is metabolically costly to produce and is essential if they are to eat), but the fangs will still come into play.

[MikeDOTB]

Auspex, on Jul 6 2009, 10:29 PM, said:

They may withhold venom (which is metabolically costly to produce and is essential if they are to eat), but the fangs will still come into play.

Wow, to inject or not to inject, that is the question huh. That's awesome that they are able to do that.

[Frank Menser]

From what I have read about 40% is the estimate for dry bites. of course when dealing with a Moc you also have to consider that they often feed on carrion so the bacteria that cause gangrene is present in their mouths along with the other blood / tissue destroying proteins in their venom.

I have a nice scar on my hand from a Moc, the result of a 'dry' bite.

However, they cannot 'gum' you to death, they lack the jaw strength to accomplish this. Vipers are actually rather weak snakes as they depend on venom to do the work. Not even an Anaconda which has the strongest bite I have experienced can do that, the teeth hold while its coils suffacate you (unlike in the movies, in real life Anacondas cannot crush you).

[Frank Menser]

MikeDOTB, on Jul 6 2009, 10:26 PM, said:

Hey Frank, I just realized your from Ayden, NC. Your right in the middle of things when it comes to GMR and Aurora. Do you get out to do much fossil hunting?

When health permits. I am at present limited in the distance I can travel.....But I do Hunt!

[MikeDOTB]

Frank Menser, on Jul 6 2009, 10:36 PM, said:

When health permits. I am at present limited in the distance I can travel.....But I do Hunt!

Well if you ever want some fossil hunting company let me know, I am usually free every weekend. I have a list of places I have heard of and or need to explore to find new locations. How long have you lived in NC?

LOL, I was just joking about snakes "Gumming people to death". I was just referring to a "dry bite". But what I didn't know was that there fangs were still present in a dry bite. I also didn't know that moccasins also fed on carrion. Which probably means small dead things since they dont tear at food?

[Irradiatus]

Frank Menser, on Jul 6 2009, 10:04 PM, said:

Black racers and some water snakes (specifically the banded) employ a defensive move where they will dart straight at you. This is not an 'attack' but rather (IMO) an instinctive response to a threat. By charging, the object is to surprise the attacker who hopefully will freeze for a second or even step backwards giving the snake that chance to escape. I have seen water snakes do this so often it is almost a rule (I have not ever seen a Moc do this) that it is a water snake and not a Moc.

Thanks for the comments Frank!

I stand corrected (mostly). I have never seen a snake do that (or heard of them doing it from herpetologists). Very interesting defensive mechanism (and clever). My main point was that they aren't trying to chase you to attack (I can't count the number of times I've heard that about racers).

As for the curious "watching" racer. Now that you mention that, a couple of months ago I was eating a burger in my car at my favorite quiet lunch spot, with the windows rolled down and my arm hanging out. I glanced out my window and suddenly saw a 5 foot long racer not 4 feet away with his head raised - just staring at me. Scared the bejeezus out of me for about 5 seconds, just because I hadn't expected a snake just staring at me through my open window. A few seconds later after IDing it, my face was smiling. Such an awesome and unexpected encounter. It was obviously just curious.
And let me tell you - racers live up to their name. The second after I took this picture, it saw me move and zipped outta sight like lightning,

This is him/her (taken with my less than great iphone camera):

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