[MikeDOTB]

Irradiatus, on Jul 6 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

Thanks for the comments Frank!

I stand corrected (mostly). I have never seen a snake do that (or heard of them doing it from herpetologists). Very interesting defensive mechanism (and clever). My main point was that they aren't trying to chase you to attack (I can't count the number of times I've heard that about racers).

As for the curious "watching" racer. Now that you mention that, a couple of months ago I was eating a burger in my car at my favorite quiet lunch spot, with the windows rolled down and my arm hanging out. I glanced out my window and suddenly saw a 5 foot long racer not 4 feet away with his head raised - just staring at me. Scared the bejeezus out of me for about 5 seconds, just because I hadn't expected a snake just staring at me through my open window. A few seconds later after IDing it, my face was smiling. Such an awesome and unexpected encounter. It was obviously just curious.
And let me tell you - racers live up to their name. The second after I took this picture, it saw me move and zipped outta sight like lightning,

This is him/her (taken with my less than great iphone camera):

Daniel, that was one awesome encounter. When I grew up we had lots of red and yellow belly racers where I lived and they were always a favorite to find because they were quite friendly. I had only seen a couple that were really big, mostly they were 12" or less long, but one time I stumbled across a nest of red belly racers including the largest one I had ever seen and it was all in coils so I couldn't try to guess how long, and a whole lot of babies slithering around.

Unfortunately I dont see to many snakes anymore. I guess its only because I dont really go looking for them. But thats a pretty good picture from your camera phone. I think the snake was really just wondering where you got your burger from. LOL... J/K...

[tracer]

ok, look. when i was much younger, i dealt quite a bit with wildlife, and in particular snakes, and no, i don't know why, but am afraid that any analysis of it wouldn't be pretty, so i don't go there.

but i dealt a lot with "hot" snakes. and lots of other things. and what i'll say is this. if you deal with any potentially dangerous critters frequently, and you mentally generalize any species as non-aggressive, you will eventually run up on a member of that group who will go off on you like a skyrocket and make you pay for your assumptions.

i won't waste your time with a bunch of examples, but i will say that i still vividly remember some horrible encounters with several different poisonous snakes, a couple of birds, a tegu lizard (i HATED that lizard), a puma, a raccoon, etc.

and a possum took time out from playing dead to bite the crap out of me.

many animals whose preference is to flee will flat take you on if they feel fleeing would make them more vulnerable under the circumstances.

[Irradiatus]

tracer, on Jul 6 2009, 11:51 PM, said:

and a possum took time out from playing dead to bite the crap out of me.
many animals whose preference is to flee will flat take you on if they feel fleeing would make them more vulnerable under the circumstances.

LOL - possum bite...

I think it's safe to say that anytime you put yourself within bite distance of an animal, the term "aggressive" does not apply to that animal. For all intents and purposes, you are now threatening their very existence as far as they know, and I'm pretty sure the possum would win the jury over with a "self defense" argument.

Possum: "He...he was ...GIANT. And I...I tried to pretend like I was dead, but...but... he just wouldn't go AWAY!!!" *cue possum tears.

[MikeDOTB]

Irradiatus, on Jul 6 2009, 11:55 PM, said:

LOL - possum bite...

I think it's safe to say that anytime you put yourself within bite distance of an animal, the term "aggressive" does not apply to that animal. For all intents and purposes, you are now threatening their very existence as far as they know, and I'm pretty sure the possum would win the jury over with a "self defense" argument.

Possum: "He...he was ...GIANT. And I...I tried to pretend like I was dead, but...but... he just wouldn't go AWAY!!!" *cue possum tears.

HA HA HA. I agree with you tracer. Any animal can be aggressive, even non-characteristic of the species, there is always one that will not follow the herd so to speak...

My worse snake bite came from a milk snake, never had a problem before with any snakes, and this one bit the crap out of me..

"Cue the possum tears" lol...

Better then a beaver biting someones nipple off!

Now this lizard Tracer, was it a pet?

[tracer]

Irradiatus, on Jul 6 2009, 10:55 PM, said:

I think it's safe to say that anytime you put yourself within bite distance of an animal, the term "aggressive" does not apply to that animal. For all intents and purposes, you are now threatening their very existence as far as they know, and I'm pretty sure the possum would win the jury over with a "self defense" argument.

well, semantics aside, it is my sense that a large majority of the people who are rearranged and/or killed by animals are relatively unaware immediately prior to such occurrences that they have transgressed and are therefore entitling the animal to use any and all reasonable force, up to and including deadly force.

so the results are the same, whether or not any of the survivors choose to call the animal "aggressive".

in the case of the possum, i'm relatively certain that he stalked me for months. besides that, it wasn't so much that he bit me that was unconscionable. it was that he refused to let go.

p.s. to mike - again, semantics - some would have considered the circumstances under which i interacted with the tupinambis teguixin to have been effectively a "owner/pet" relationship, but i on the other hand considered it to be a hostage situation in which i was the hostage, and a little bit of stockholm syndrome was occurring. it didn't last too long. the daily dread of dealing with the delinquent demon's devious dangerousness drained my joie de vivre, so one of us had to go, and i was the one paying the bills.

[Frank Menser]

Devish Demons more frequently occor in Human form. The death toll of so called dangerous animals vs their human "victims" is staggering.

One thing that is a pity is there are no statistics to show the percentage of times people were in close proximity of a deadly snake and didn't know it, and it chose to not strike, I assure you the percentage again would be astronomical.

It amazes me the terror people in this country have for snakes that kill an average of less than two people a year (the lowest cause of death in the country) and yet fearlessly prowl our roads that kill or injure roughly 450,000 people a year.

I have physically worked with and handled 'hot snakes' since my early twenties and never do I allow myself the vulnerability of thinking them benign. But to attribute an aggressiveness that is not their nature is just as foolish.

Many years ago a friend of mine was walking in a S. Florida Pine forrest with a 17 year old girl. A rough green snake fell from a branch and landed briefly on the girl on its way to the ground. The girl collasped and died of a heart attack. Oft times fear is far more the enemy than its inspiration.

[Frank Menser]

MikeDOTB, on Jul 6 2009, 10:52 PM, said:

Well if you ever want some fossil hunting company let me know, I am usually free every weekend. I have a list of places I have heard of and or need to explore to find new locations. How long have you lived in NC?

LOL, I was just joking about snakes "Gumming people to death". I was just referring to a "dry bite". But what I didn't know was that there fangs were still present in a dry bite. I also didn't know that moccasins also fed on carrion. Which probably means small dead things since they dont tear at food?

If your that close would love to have you come over and see the collection...

[JohnJ]

tracer, on Jul 6 2009, 10:51 PM, said:

... if you deal with any potentially dangerous critters frequently, and you mentally generalize any species as non-aggressive, you will eventually run up on a member of that group who will go off on you like a skyrocket and make you pay for your assumptions...

True.

It was a cow...a young cow...heck, it was probably a yearling, and it was just last fall...with danwoehr! I backed the canoe up to the bank where the stranded bovine teenager had hammered the river ledge he was on into a mosaic of hoofprints. No big deal...I've "rescued" stranded calves from ledges before. Basically, you herd them off into the water toward the closest gravel bar.

I told Dan this would just take a minute as I walked slowly toward the cow with my paddle crossways to my body...it's that appear bigger than you are thing. When the cow reached the end of the ledge, he turned...and I swear his eyes opened wider...you know - that Charles Manson look. I was in mid-step, processing this unexpected behavior, when he did that "cartoon bull" scraping his hoof gesture...(it crossed my mind that he should give 2 - 3 pawing moves but he "cheated" - just one). With that, he lowered his head and TORO! I found that I'm amazingly still nimble (lucky). I placed the middle of the paddle perpendicular to his head and absorbed the charge as I raised my feet off the ground to avoid his hooves. Being momentarily pinned above and between the demon cow and the bluff bank as he thundered past, I noticed Dan astutely paddling the canoe from the narrow path of the "harmless" beast (at least that's what he said - it could've been self preservation).

Just a small abrasion and a pounding adrenaline rush were all that I suffered...oh, and Dan's laughter until I could join in a few miles downriver.

[Fat Boy]

Awesome report Mike and Daniel! And also some great reading material, very enjoyable. I felt like I was there with y'all!