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  1. The Chondricthyans (including the sharks and rays) have been around and keeping the ocean's ecosystems healthy for about 420 Million Years. Today, in celebration of this, I've decided to do a little fun post and list the eight times in Earth's history truly massive chondricthyans have emerged. Hope you all enjoy!!! The First is the Devonian, where there is at least one confirmed fossil (CMNH 5238) of a large currently unnamed Ctenacanthiform shark that reached lengths of 4.2-5 meters (13-16 feet) in length. https://www.mdpi.com/1424-2818/15/3/318 The Second is the Mississippian stage of the Carboniferous (358.9-323.2 Million Years ago), a golden age for chondricthyans. The Early Carboniferous saw the emergence of Giant Ctenacanthiform sharks like Saivodus striatus, which grew up to 10-11 meters (32-36 feet) in length. https://www.uky.edu/KGS/fossils/fossil-of-the-month_2022-07_Saivodus.php https://www.uky.edu/KGS/fossils/fossil-of-the-month_2022-07_how-big.php https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/fossils-of-the-2023-national-fossil-day-artwork.htm The Third is the Pennsylvanian stage of the Carboniferous (323.2-298.9 Million Years ago). Like the Mississippian, the Pennsylvanian was also a golden stage for Chondricthyans where large Ctenacanthiforms continued to thrive and large Eugeneodontida edestoids like Edestus (which could grow up to 6.7 meters (22 feet) in length) emerged. Large Ctenacanthiforms from this time include the unnamed Graham Formation Gilkmanius sp., which grew up to 7 meters (22 feet) in length. https://bioone.org/journals/journal-of-vertebrate-paleontology/volume-37/issue-3/02724634.2017.1325369/A-Pennsylvanian-Supershark-from-Texas/10.1080/02724634.2017.1325369.short The Fourth is the Permian (298-252 Million years ago). There were some large sharks, like the Ctenacanthiform Kaibabvenator (which grew up to 4.8-5.48 meters (16-18 feet) in length). But Eugeneodontida by this point contained the largest Chondricthyans alive at this time including Helicoprion (which grew up to 7.6 meters (25 feet) in length) and Parahelicoprion (which could grow up to 12 meters (36 feet) in length). https://www.academia.edu/29941296/Chondrichthyan_and_actinopterygian_remains_from_theLower_Permian_Copacabana_Formation_of_Bolivia https://doi.org/10.1002%2Far.24046 The Fifth is the Early Cretaceous (145-100 Million Years ago). Though the time's aquatic ecosystems was dominated by large marine reptiles, large sharks managed to emerge and fill ecological niches from time to time. This includes the Early Cretaceous Shark Leptostyrax, which grew up to 6.3 meters (20 feet) in length. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/277782424_A_Gigantic_Shark_from_the_Lower_Cretaceous_Duck_Creek_Formation_of_Texas The Sixth is the Late Cretaceous (100-66 Million years ago). Aquatic ecosystems still were dominated by marine reptiles, but large sharks were indeed present. This includes Cretodus crassidens (which grew up to 9-11 meters (29-36 meters) in length) and Ptychodus (which grew up to 10 meters (32 feet) in length). https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0231544 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-paleontology/article/morphology-and-paleobiology-of-the-late-cretaceous-largesized-shark-cretodus-crassidens-dixon-1850-neoselachii-lamniformes/A670012A44DDC68FC098BB8C73368408 The seventh is the Miocene-Early Pilocene (23-3.6 Million Years ago). This period saw the rise and reign of some of the largest sharks known currently in the fossil record, including Carcharocles (Otodus) megalodon (which grew up to 17 meters (55 feet) in length). https://www.uv.es/everlab/PUBLICACIONES/2017/2017 Martinez-Perez et al HB miocene sharks.pdf https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abl6529 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9385135/ The eighth is the Early Pliocene-Late Pleistocene (3.6-0.012 Million Years ago). This period saw the last remnants of the large 20 foot + in size carnivorous sharks from the Miocene-Pilocene mega shark era not including the non-Great White shark (Carcharodon carcharias) and not including the large plankton eating sharks make their final stand. These include Hemipristis serra (which grew up to 6 meters (20 feet) in length) and Parotodus benedeni (which grew up to 7.6 meters (24 feet) in length). https://www.app.pan.pl/archive/published/app63/app004542018.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/publication/364591134_A_previously_overlooked_highly_diverse_early_Pleistocene_elasmobranch_assemblage_from_southern_Taiwan https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/paleobiology/article/chondrichthyan-fossil-record-of-the-florida-platform-eocenepleistocene/2835CCEC27DC8EE0B24A5B62B1416618 I hope this is helpful?
  2. I've been fascinated with the Eugeneodontids (the buzz-saw chondrichthyans) and how they managed to practically become the apex predators of most oceanic environments from the Carboniferous to the Permian with famous members like Edestus and Helicoprion. Two genus of this extraordinary group even survived the Permian-Triassic Extinction 252 Million Years ago - Fadenia and Caseodus! http://www.fossilworks.org/cgi-bin/bridge.pl?a=taxonInfo&taxon_no=34456 http://www.fossilworks.org/cgi-bin/bridge.pl?a=taxonInfo&taxon_no=34451 But by the Olenekian stage of the Triassic, the group disappeared. I can understand why the more specialized members of the group like Helicoprion went extinct (ecological specialists and top predators don't do well in events like the Permian-Traissic Extinction event), but what caused the extinction of Fadenia and Caseodus? What occurred in the Triassic that ended the reign of the Eugeneodontids?
  3. Anyone know anything about Californian Helicoprion fossils? I know they’ve been found in Eastern California, but that’s about it and I’d like to learn more.
  4. Hey fossil friends, just got home from my artists house and thought you guys and gals might enjoy the artwork. Only one real option for me, old saw jaw of course! The picture was drawn for me by my dear friend Ray Troll. Who else here branded themselves with their obsession?
  5. RedHeadWelder

    Found this fossil. But what is it?

    It's not a big fossil. My hubby and I think it's a buzzsaw shark tooth. Anyway, we can't figure out what kind of buzzsaw shark it's from or if it's even that kind of fossil. It looks like a doll shoe, but it is a fossil. Any help would be appreciated.
  6. that Helicoprion is one crazy animal with a very interesting history! 3 years of research and we are still learning something new about them all the time. It is interesting that for as little is known about them there are over 60 publications about the genus. For your reading pleasure I present a story of research, madness, forced labor camps, and execution. All in the pursuit of this enigmatic shark! http://www.g-to-g.co...ilter=repressed
  7. Sparki2122

    Helicoprion Shark Fossil?

    Good afternoon, I would like to start off with saying that I know very little about fossils and Geology so please excuse me if I make any errors or misstatements. Recently I purchased approximately 10 cubic yards of rock from a local business to use for landscaping around my property. The business has claimed that the rocks they sold me were excavated from in or near the banks of the Snake River in Southern Idaho. I unfortunately do not have a more exact location but I would be willing to possibly follow up with the business if more information is needed. With the help of some friends we were able to determine that scattered throughout the 10 yards of rock I received were Agates, Jasper, Opal, Amber, Star Garnets, and small fish and crustacean fossils with some even appearing to be in a preserved state encased in a soft yellow translucent amber. Knowing some of the types of rocks I received, the general location of excavation, and a brief history of rare fossils that are found within Idaho I was stunned when I came across the specimen pictured below. Most notably the spiral tooth-like feature is what drew me to this rock and made me take a closer look. There are very distinctive features that appear to be eye holes, nostrils, gills and of course the famous spiral tooth pattern. The internal structure looking through the eye is a completely opaque white substance that resembles a mix of opal, amber, and other silica material. The silica based specimen appears to be sitting on top of a hard rock stone. Sunk into the very bottom of this stone is a 2nd spiraling tooth-like feature which I only guess could be the other set of teeth. After coming across this rock and with the little stated knowledge that I have on these subjects I took to the internet to attempt to research Helicoprion fossils and in general shark fossils. As many of you are probably already aware besides teeth it is very rare to find any fossilized portion of a shark of any species let alone a possible intact skull from one of the rarest sharks out there. The overall size of the specimen is also a little concerning as my understanding is that the Helicoprion shark was a rather large shark and was likely somewhere between 3-5 meters at full growth. After doing the research on whats out there and based off of what I already know I still remain rather skeptical that this is what I'm claiming it to be but at the same time remain hopeful that this is a fossil of some sort as I am having trouble coming up with an explanation for the content that this rock is made of among others in the rock pile and for a reasonable natural explanation for spiraling patterns. This is 1 of 3 rocks that I've found thus far with spiraling teeth-like features. The other 2 are made of similar material, resemble some similar structures, and share distinctive features other than the spiral such as eye holes, nostrils, jaw lines, and ect. The major difference between the 3 is the specimen that is pictured here is larger, more intact, and displays the most features. I appreciate any feedback that I can get because of the pandemic college campuses are closed and it has made it hard to get in contact with people who could possibly help me. I would like to have as much knowledge on what this possibly is before jumping in the car and driving to the nearest Natural History Museum which is over 3 hours away from me. I would hate to do something like that if this is only just a "cool" rock. I have many more pictures if needed displaying all of the features mentioned and many more as well as pictures of other specimen found in the same rock pile just let me know if they are needed or wanted and I can message them or make another post with them.
  8. Jesse

    Shark Scales/skin?

    I am having trouble nailing down what exactly this fossil is and would appreciate some help. It is from the Phosphoria formation (270 ma), and was found on a horizon of low grade phosphate that was roughly 20x10 feet. The gentleman who found the fossil said it was covering the horizon and that there were 20-30 3 inch diameter tooth whorls as well! So this material is supposedly associated with helicoprion fossils. The picture is the fossil as is, the guy that collected it POURED shellac over the entire surface The blue tinted 3d model is what I built today based on a surface scan of the rock.
  9. http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/02/26/buzzsaw-jaw-helicoprion-was-a-freaky-ratfish/ http://www2.isu.edu/headlines/?p=4270 After many years and many promises, here it is, hot off the presses!
  10. The various gem-mineral-fossil shows that are collectively known as "The Tucson Show" ended last Sunday. Many people consider the official end to be the close of the main show at the convention center but many dealers are long gone by then at the other shows. I've been going to the Tucson shows since 1989 with some missed years in the early 2000's. I've seen established shows disappear or change venue with even the names of the venues changing two or three times. The town had seemed to deteriorate over time, but this year, Tucson looked a little clear - perhaps because construction on the highway that cuts near much of the action has finally been completed after several years of roadwork and associated detours. Much of my interest lies with fossil shark teeth so much of my attention was focused in that direction but I couldn't help seeing a variety of specimens and this report will include a few mentions of other vertebrates and some invertebrates. I don't have any photos to include at the moment though I will try to add some soon (specimens I acquired). Part of the problem is that a growing number of dealers frown on or outright refuse to allow photographs to be taken. Some of the specimen photos that have been taken in the past have ended up on Ebay or as other online offers even though the photographer didn't own the specimen. The photographer would include the dealer's business card in the shot so that dealer is the one mired in later turmoil while the photographer is the one would gets the money and disappears. Another scam involves a photographer bird-dogging a team of seasoned thieves to valuable specimens. They shoot high-dollar items (clued in by the asking price on the sticker) and then shop the photos to customers and then another member of the team just steals the specimens. Someone distracts the dealer with questions/conversation while an accomplice quickly palms a specimen into a pouch or into clothing. Some dealers make good targets especially if they have big, undermanned booths and they have hand-sized specimens worth at least several hundred dollars on a table. Most dealers don't lose things that are worth $5-10. That's not worth the risk they are willing to take. Two years ago, a friend lost a $2000 meteorite with the distraction ploy. The other problem with photography is that the lighting is often not close to optimum especially in the rooms or in a tent where natural light cannot reach. A problem I had was that much of the time I was in town was taken helping a friend in his booth. I didn't bring a camera and wanted to go buy one but didn't have much opportunity to go to a store. Perhaps someone else was able to take some photos of the displays particularly in the Tucson City Center Hotel (former Innsuites Hotel) ballroom? During the couple of days before the show opened at the Tucson City Center, I had some time to look around. One room was shared by a few dealers. One of them had an assortment of shark teeth from the Eocene and Miocene of Peru - some nice auriculatus and some beautiful hastalis with great color (shiny reddish with darker streaks, other multi-colored specimens). It was more Peru stuff on one table than I had seen in years. Apparently, someone had either thinned out part of his old collection or it was an old collection. The lighting wasn't the greatest in the room and the prices were high but several teeth did sell quickly. I saw some great whites from Mexico, a nicely-colored meg from the Calvert Cliffs, and a well-preserved Desmostylus from the the Sharktooth Hill Bonebed (not a shark - an extinct marine mammal with no close modern relative). I saw the Helicoprion specimen that someone mentioned elsewhere here on the forum. I hadn't seen one for sale in maybe fifteen years though someone told me that a couple were available at a Denver show maybe 5-6 years ago. The whorl was shiny black on black matrix and spiraled out to cover at least the space of a large grapefruit. I saw numerous Paleozoic shark teeth for sale (some from the U.S; some from Europe) and prices were high. My problem is that I recall a nice Petalodus being about a $40-50 tooth around 15 years ago, but now, it's a $150-200 tooth. More people try to restore shark teeth these days too so you have to look for that when you like less-common genera or species. Some nice things become more in-demand, and therefore more valuable, over time. In the ballroom at the Tucson City Center Lynne Clos of The Fossil News was offering back issues from 2010 for a buck each. I bought one of each of the different available issues. A few days later, she told me to take some for free because she wanted to lighten the load home. Perhaps one of my more interesting finds was a juvenile megalodon from the Bone Valley Formation. It's just over 1 1/2 inches (about 4cm) with a light gray root and a dark gray crown. Some of the serrations are chipped off and the bourlette has been worn off but the root is in great shape. The crown seemed unusually thick and I confirmed it when I got it home. It's more inflated (especially labially) than another "Hubbell" I have of about the same size. I couldn't pass it up at $10. I saw some Sharktooth Hill Bonebed material for sale and bought two Allodesmus astraguli (ankle bones) and a nice postcanine tooth. These teeth often bear well-worn crowns. The weird thing with the wear pattern is that the tip is generally in good shape but the mesial and distal sides are worn from contact with the opposing teeth. I talked to a couple of forum members at different times during the show: isurus90064 and veomega. I will try to write more tomorrow...
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