Shellseeker Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 My better half has been away for the better part of two week, severely limiting my hunting trips. Today I managed to get away to a location on the Peace River where I have taken some TFF friends previously. It was cool 53 degrees driving there , but once the sun came out , it was OK -- as long as I had my 5 mm wetsuit. I was by myself because getting a dog_walker was a last minute offer. This location has a line -- clearly Miocene marine on one side and Pleistocene mammal on the other. I had found some medium sized Hemis, 5-6 Armadillo osteoderms, about half of a good sized dolphin tooth, some gator teeth, a couple of verts... no fantastic finds but a very soothing experience on a bright sunny , cool day. So, I am thinking last sieve, and this comes up.. for a second laying in the sieve , I thought it was whole.... but no. I did go back for a couple more sieves to try and find the rest of it, but no such luck. Carnassials are very distinctive. I think this is enough to not only identify the mammal, but also the exact tooth position. The length of the broken enamel is approx 13 mm. Enjoy !!! Jack 6 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruger9a Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 Nice find! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rand95 Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 great find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone Daddy Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 Looks a little like Dire Wolf, but don't quote me on that. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted November 27, 2019 Author Share Posted November 27, 2019 Thanks, I was excited by it...even broken Quote car·nas·si·al /kärˈnasēəl/ adjective Zoology adjective: carnassial denoting the large upper premolar and lower molar teeth of a carnivore, adapted for shearing flesh. In my hunting area, cats and dogs, where the largest dog fossil find is likely Dire Wolf and the largest cat is Panthera onca , Jaguar. True , others exist but they are really rare in my Florida hunting grounds. The Florida Museum of Natural History website provides some excellent photos of the jaws and teeth of Dire Wolf https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/florida-vertebrate-fossils/species/canis-dirus and Jaguar https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/florida-vertebrate-fossils/species/panthera-onca/. From looking at these photos, possible candidates are Dire Wolf lower p4, and Jaguar upper p4 and lower p4. A photo of the left mandible from the FLMNH website: In this TFF Post http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/29885-please-id-a-carnassial/, @Harry Pristis and @PrehistoricFlorida identified my 1st Jaguar Carnassial, a lower right mandible "m1" with mostly broken roots. The length of the enamel was 23 millemeters (.90 inch). Harry provided a valuable photo, which I saved and memorized. Harry also has photos of the Lingual view. Based on the 32 mm height of root plus enamel, I'm thinking it is like 50% of a lower right p4 from Panthera onca. Lot of guesstimating here.. 2 hours ago, rand95 said: great find. 5 hours ago, Ruger9a said: Nice find! Thanks .. Agree !!!! 2 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted November 27, 2019 Author Share Posted November 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, Bone Daddy said: Looks a little like Dire Wolf, but don't quote me on that. LOL. Thank you, Took me a while of looking... You could be right. There are so many similarities between the two animals... and nothing really crisp on the differences. Thanks for the comeback 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone Daddy Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 17 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: Thank you, Took me a while of looking... You could be right. There are so many similarities between the two animals... and nothing really crisp on the differences. Thanks for the comeback I only know this because I found a similar tooth a few years back and asked for ID in the forum and Harry Pristis ID'ed it for me. Your tooth looks very similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted November 28, 2019 Author Share Posted November 28, 2019 4 hours ago, Bone Daddy said: I only know this because I found a similar tooth a few years back and asked for ID in the forum and Harry Pristis ID'ed it for me. Your tooth looks very similar. Harry pointed to this photo in his Gallery in the post you reference. As always Harry has great photos that add immense value to TFF. I believe that the Dire Wolf lower carnassial M1 is the other best option for the carnassial fragment I found. I considered the Dire Wolf M1, and thought the Jaguar p4 was a slightly better fit. Mostly I see the "peak" of the Dire Wolf carnassial to be centered of slightly more over the larger root than the smaller root. I do need to concede that the Basin argues Dire Wolf, but the smallest peck on my find seems to argue Jaguar.. It may be the the mandible m1 is not the right comparison. 2 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifbrindacier Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 Nice find. "On ne voit bien que par le coeur, l'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." (Antoine de Saint-Exupéry) "We only well see with the heart, the essential is invisible for the eyes." In memory of Doren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted November 28, 2019 Author Share Posted November 28, 2019 1 hour ago, fifbrindacier said: Nice find. Thanks. It is exciting and I try to repay that excitement ( in finding the fossil ) with a specific identification. Many cases that is not possible but in this case, I think I have a Panthera Onca lower left p4 carnassial. I was helped by this photo from a scientific paper on a Pleistocene Jaguar: PLEISTOCENE FELIDAE (MAMMALIA, CARNIVORA) FROM THE KUDARO PALEOLITHIC CAVE SITES IN THE CAUCASUS G.F. Baryshnikov The photo shows a broken lower p4 I find it amazing that I have the exact same break point. 5 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcbshark Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 Awesome find Jack Every once in a great while it's not just a big rock down there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrehistoricFlorida Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 Not a carnassial. It's a lower p4 from a felid. Size is consistent with jaguar. www.PrehistoricFlorida.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted November 30, 2019 Author Share Posted November 30, 2019 7 hours ago, PrehistoricFlorida said: Not a carnassial. It's a lower p4 from a felid. Size is consistent with jaguar. PrehistoricFlorida is correct..It is not a carnassial. The "m1" in the lower jaw IS the carnassial. See Jaguar lower Jaw above.. Once again The "m1" in the lower jaw IS the carnassial. 2 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 Great find Jack and informative thread! Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted December 2, 2019 Author Share Posted December 2, 2019 14 hours ago, Plantguy said: Great find Jack and informative thread! Regards, Chris Thanks Chris, When I first recognized predator tooth_root, there is a moment of intense thrill_joy that I keep trying to re_create..... I am fortunate to have kindred spirits on TFF to listen to my ramblings. Jack The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandpa Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 12 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: listen to my ramblings. 'Cause you're a rambler and a gambler And a sweet-taiking-ladies man And you love your lovin' But not like you love your freedom - JonI Mitchell But I got to ramble (ramblin' man) Gamble (gamblin' man) Ramble (ramblin' man) I was born a ramblin' gamblin' man - Bob Seiger I’m a rambler, I’m a gambler I’m a long way from my home If the people don’t like me They can leave me alone - Bob Dylan Sorry, I think I had a short circuit in my hard wiring and just had to get this out of my head where it was "rambling around". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagurus Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 57 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: I am fortunate to have kindred spirits on TFF to listen to my ramblings. Jack 1 Start the day with a smile and get it over with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted December 2, 2019 Author Share Posted December 2, 2019 44 minutes ago, grandpa said: 'Cause you're a rambler and a gambler And a sweet-taiking-ladies man And you love your lovin' But not like you love your freedom - JonI Mitchell But I got to ramble (ramblin' man) Gamble (gamblin' man) Ramble (ramblin' man) I was born a ramblin' gamblin' man - Bob Seiger I’m a rambler, I’m a gambler I’m a long way from my home If the people don’t like me They can leave me alone - Bob Dylan Sorry, I think I had a short circuit in my hard wiring and just had to get this out of my head where it was "rambling around". 4 minutes ago, Pagurus said: Big smile... BIG !!!!! Smile. Thanks for the comebacks, Jack 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now