Cambrian Cambropllas

[Davidevi82]

Hi all, i want to buy that Cambropallas Telesto. It seems a good specimen, i can see rock cracks passing thru the trilo so is a good sign. But i'm not sure about the entire specimen, in particular in the black areas in the back. Seems that the "shell" have been eroded. What do you think?

 

Thank you

 

 

[aeon.rocks]

Wait for reply of someone who has experience prepping or digging these... But:

 

I think it's a total fake, cast/sculpture. I've seen one or two of these before, same cast... What gives it away is the preservation of exoskeleton is not typical for Jbel Ougnate (however, maybe I'm wrong). A very good fake placed in real matrix! But too good to be true... Most likely produced (and painted) in USA or EU. Imho. Untill I see prep pics or more detailed pics, it's difficult to say anything from photos. Usually these are partially real and restored, but... Pic below, same replica on the left:

 

 

 

Partially restored but mostly authentic to compare exoskeleton/"shell". A similar one might have served for making the replica above imho: 

 

 

 

 

[Davidevi82]

Really? So also the cracks on the rock and the specimen are made to look more real?

[aeon.rocks]

What's the size of the trilobite?

 

Ask the seller for clear high res. close up photos of the cracks and skin. Or even better, for prep-photos...

 

It's just my opinion, based on these pics, would need to examine the specimen in hand, to say anything for sure. I'ld love to hear some other opinions based on experience with this too, but it seems no one wants to bite in. 

 

I could be wrong, to be honest can not really be sure from these pics only, but if I had to guess I'ld say total fake/replica. However, there are thousands of different trilobites, and also in case of Morocco, several different sites and layers where same species can be found. I mostly collect devonian bugs of Morocco, I have some experience with prep of other bugs too, but one can never know everything nor prep everything and there are so many different species and different preservations of same species... Also many sites in the ordovician and cambrian of Morocco that are not often excavated (and some sites still probably not explored yet), from which new bugs rarely seen in the market could come. I heard about deposits with "better as usually seen in the market" skin preservation of cambrian material. But in this case I think would need to examine the specimen in hand, because if fake, it's a replica done professionally (cast, resin)... If authentic (at least partially), then you should see preparation photos.

 

Cracks (glued break lines) are a good way to check the authenticity of Moroccan devonian and (sometimes) ordovician trilobites. But not reliable for full atuhenticity test and can be faked or masked - you don't see break lines with russian trilobites, you don't see it with devonian bugs of Oklahoma... The only thing you can rely on are details of the exoskeleton, eye faceting and your experience. Besides, cambrian Moroccan bugs are very often supplemented or faked, a lot more often as devonian bugs anyway...

 

These Cambropallas and similar other Moroccan cambrian bugs usually split in positive and negative. When they break in several parts they are pieced back together and preped a little. The specimen in question looks like one that would be prepared down almost full, and while it's possible that I'm wrong when I say that it's fake based on a few minor things only - I'm suspicious about "the prep-work" and skin detail (notice the granulation in pic below?) and in this case the coating... The only thing they really messed up for this fake Cambropallas replica in question is that they didn't use the right pigments - was NOT made in Morocco like most of these fakes.  Considering this is the the most often faked cambrian Moroccan species, I wouldn't buy until I see prep photos, except if sold by one of 2 (re)sellers of Moroccan bugs which I find 100% trustworthy and have (occasionally) high quality too. Or the few Moroccan prep guys, who I know I can trust. The rest of resellers (which I assume the specimen in question comes from) seem to care more about profit than authenticity or quality and not professional enough - low/mediocre commercial quality, fake spines, compositions and occasional good quality in the mix, but all just checked with UV (which is not reliable enough) and everything sold as top, authentic, often without disclosure... There are a few more good resellers, not just 2, but not so many resellers (with fancy websites) who understand how bugs they sell are found and preped...

 

Not sure if it's worth the trouble to fake a Cambropallas like that, but it's possible based on the few examples I've seen (pic above) which I believe are from the same replica. And the level of restoration in EU and USA preped trilobites is already up to a high standard, which can be tricky to detect sometimes: https://www.trilobiti.com/post/are-trilobites-rare-or-common-fossils

 

 

 

I have a feeling that in this decade, we will see more professionally made fakes and you will need to forget about the tutorials where resin "bubbles" are the main indicator of fakery, and relay on very few honest sellers and preparation photos and more important (especially in case of devonian Moroccan trilobites) details of the exoskeleton in good quality prepared trilobites (butchered old tech-prepared specimens already look very similar to old type of fake), before you can examine and test the purchased specimens in hand. 

 

In short, caveat emptor!

 

Same technique was used for the specimen in question, imho as with these older fakes:

 

 

http://www.fossilmuseum.net/collect/faketrilobites3.htm

[aeon.rocks]

Check also this: 

 

[Davidevi82]

I think t that is very difficult to know if it's fake or not. I tell you more information that I forgot to say before but are very important.

The trilobite is from a guy in Morocco, he told me that has found it the mountains near Oukhit, he also seems me the position on the map, and prepped himself but he hasn't photo to prove that.

That kind of specimen is completely different from other that I have seen of the Cambropallas but is similar to one other that I asked before in the forum,not from the same seller but the area is approximately the same.

So (only a question I don't take the parts of the seller) why to make a totally different fake when you could do a better work on a "standard" form of that trilobite?

 

Other cambrian trilobite

[Fitch1979]

35 minutes ago, Davidevi82 said:

 

So (only a question I don't take the parts of the seller) why to make a totally different fake when you could do a better work on a "standard" form of that trilobite?

 

Other cambrian trilobite

 

There is but one correct morphology per species possible. Everything deviating from that should immediate rise suspicion. Making fakes is, as Aeon.rocks says, not at the point yet where they are completely the same as the original species but evolves indeed in an incredible professional way. Experience makes the master ..and they are making them. 

 

Luckily they're not overall there yet  As proves this specimen. If it doesn't look like the real thing, it mostly isn't  Already the varnish should withhold you from buying this.. if there is one thing I learned in Morocco it's: if you don't have to buy it, don't! Applied here: if you don't need varnish to sell your trilobite, don't buy it. If you need varnish however .. there's something going on  It makes reworked surface look the same as the natural surface, hence works as a camouflager. 

 

I really think it's an odd form for a cambropallas .. 

 

Added a real one, no coloring at all .. 

 

 

[aeon.rocks]

3 hours ago, Davidevi82 said:

I think t that is very difficult to know if it's fake or not. I tell you more information that I forgot to say before but are very important.

The trilobite is from a guy in Morocco, he told me that has found it the mountains near Oukhit, he also seems me the position on the map, and prepped himself but he hasn't photo to prove that.

That kind of specimen is completely different from other that I have seen of the Cambropallas but is similar to one other that I asked before in the forum,not from the same seller but the area is approximately the same.

So (only a question I don't take the parts of the seller) why to make a totally different fake when you could do a better work on a "standard" form of that trilobite?

 

Other cambrian trilobite

 

 

First, did you get an ID on that other trilobite? Preservation is different, different matrix, different preparation. I'm familiar with ordovician deposits near Oukhit. You best speak with Moroccans, if that other trilobite is cambrian or ordovician and to get an ID, and also about the Cambropallas... No one here knows better.

 

As I mentioned, I'm not an expert and you need to get answers from collectors with more experience in collecting, prepping or finding cambrian material of Morocco, I mostly focus on Moroccan devonian trilobites. But Morocco is very rich in deposits with fossils from cambrian, ordovician, devonian and all up  to miocene and pliocene. There are many different sites, many trilobite species... Easy to get lost among all species of authentic Moroccan trilobites and many don't even appear often in the commercial market, because excavation is often not productive enough even for Moroccan commerce to make sense.

 

Some experienced Moroccan preparators and diggers know most of the different sites and different preservations, tricks... No collector on the TFF has that experience imho. So as I mentioned, there is a possibility, that we are looking at a trilobite from a different site (hence different skin preservation), while most Cambropallas come from Wawemast FM near Jbel Ougnat. But I'm suspicious about that, doubt it, in best case only a small area of thorax is authentic and the rest restored. And all together over-worked, painted and coated to look like a complete Cambropallas. Jbel Ougnat is however just the most abundant area with these. But I still believe it's fake or at least mostly restored. As Fitch1979 says if it doesn't look like the real thing, it usually isn't and this Cambropallas looks far from a typicall cambrian preservation...

 

Quote

 

 why to make a totally different fake when you could do a better work on a "standard" form of that trilobite?

 

 

 

 

A better prep work you mean? You are forgetting prep work is always limited with preservation and in this case it's the preservation that is suspicius. Ask for more and better photos... 

 

As already mentioned, varnish or some coatings are often used to hide scribe marks, or give more contrast to details, but in this case was not used for that reason - I think it was not needed if it were authentic and is just there to camouflage too. 

 

If it was made in Morocco, that means 2 things: 

- Moroccan fakes of some species are getting better

- be carefull with some resellers, who just resell everything for profit (at least one of these sold before for hunderds of $)

 

My advice: don't buy trilobites for which you don't know exact species name, exact locality or can't see the skin texture and other details in photos (specific for each species - ornamentation details like graulation, tuberculation, microgranulation, pores, terrace lines on exoskeleton) clearly and don't see prep-photos.... Or get familiar with the species you buy... 

 

Why make a fake? Because it just takes an hour the first time you make a cast and then less as an hour for every next fake you make... Compared to many hours of digging and prepping...

Why make a different fake? Because the chance to fool someone is greater if you improve the fakery, than if you keep making the same already well-known bubble fakes...

 

Does this look similar? It's a resin cast:

 

 

 

[aeon.rocks]

Just for fun, check out this sculpture. Not much seems real (a part of cephalon and first pleuras), but I guess if you like art, it's just like buying a chiseled marble sculpture - except that artists who chisel marble for living are more honest about what they are doing as most resellers and preparators of fossils...

 

There's a thin line between fossil prep for commerce and chiseling marble. That's why always get familiar with the species you buy and avoid anything too suspicious, if you don't see prep-photos or you can't see the skin texture and ornamentation details clearly. If you prefer more or less natural fossils. Unless, you like art:

 

: 

 

 

[JohnJ]

As a reminder to all on this topic, TFF prohibits the posting of exact ad copy verbiage, discussion or identification of any particular seller, and any valuations of a particular specimen.  Thanks for your help.

[aeon.rocks]

19 hours ago, JohnJ said:

As a reminder to all on this topic, TFF prohibits the posting of exact ad copy verbiage, discussion or identification of any particular seller, and any valuations of a particular specimen.  Thanks for your help.

 

Thank you, so no rules were broken, unless I guess the rule doesn't prohibit discussions about almost all particular resellers generally, does it? There are very few good ones! 

 

PS: a question like "where the specimen is for sale?" can help with opinion about authenticity. I don't remember any specific valuations.

 

[Davidevi82]

3 hours ago, JohnJ said:

As a reminder to all on this topic, TFF prohibits the posting of exact ad copy verbiage, discussion or identification of any particular seller, and any valuations of a particular specimen.  Thanks for your help.

Thanks but I think there have been no violations of the rules in this topic, indeed I think that many things have been highlighted to watch out for.

 

@aeon.rocks thank you very much for your help. 

[JohnJ]

9 hours ago, aeon.rocks said:

 

Thank you, so no rules were broken, unless I guess the rule doesn't prohibit discussions about almost all particular resellers generally, does it? There are very few good ones!

 

There have been edits removing seller identifying ad copy and valuations. 

 

Discussions focused on better ways to identify and understand actual fossils help diminish the customer base for mistaken or deceptive sellers.