Devonian Shark Experts Needed

[fossilsonwheels]

I have done this periodically on the forum with quite a bit of success so I thought we would try it again. I am working on going deeper into shark evolution in our programs and expanding  the range of sharks we cover by a few million years. We are set with our Cenozoic and Mesozoic sharks but we are still tinkering with the Paleozoic sharks. Currently the goal is extending the timeline backward and covering the very early sharks. Our earliest shark fossils were 340 million years old but we have been able to find a few that are older and really help us but I am wondering if we can find more.

 

We recently acquired some Chondrichthyes scales from the Harding Sandstone. While likely not "true" shark scales, they are a link in the chain which is what we need. I think this was a good starting point. We also picked up a Diplacanthus fossil from Scotland which gives us a nice example of what the ancestors of sharks were and again provides us with another link in the chain. Carter and I both thought these were fossils we needed to add to really show the kids shark evolution through the fossils. 

 

We also picked up some micro fossils from the Genudewa Limestone of New York which should provide some interesting shark material. This formation is the same age (Givetian) and same general location (New York) as the formation that Wellerodus is described from. There are teeth and denticles that are at least superficially pretty close to those of Wellerodus. This is probably our best shot at finding shark fossils that could potentially be from Antarticlamnidae. I know there are also teeth found in these micros that look Cladodont in nature as well.

 

Outside of these micro fossils, I am coming up blank on Devonian shark fossils. I have been researching the heck out of Paleozoic sharks and I know the Devonian stuff is rare but I have seen a little bit in collections so in my mind it might be possible to add a tooth or some denticles from other formations. Obviously we are not looking for a full shark fossil from the Cleveland Shale or anything like that but I believe we can scrounge up some additional fossils from the Devonian. None of my usual sources have turned up any material at all so we need a push start here lol

 

So TFF friends, share your knowledge with us if you can. What, if any, options are there as far as Devonian shark teeth or denticles that appear on the market ? Are there formations that we should look into that people collect from? Basically any information that we can get might be helpful. The goal is filling in that timeline of sharks and we have a bunch of shark programs this winter and spring so this is the collecting priority for us. 

 

Thank you in advance for any and all replies !

 

 

 

 

[Mediospirifer]

My only experience with Devonian shark teeth is from the North Evans limestone. That's a beach lag deposit that (at the Penn-Dixie quarry) directly underlies the Genundewa. I've found four micro shark teeth from the small amount I've dissolved in vinegar. It's a very rich deposit, and a small amount kept me busy for quite a while.

 

I don't have a reference for ID-ing shark teeth, unfortunately. I was more focused on the (plentiful!) conodonts from this matrix. 

 

Want some? I have several bags of chunks around for tradebait.  Drop me a PM if you want to work something out.

 

[connorp]

If you have no luck in your search, you could use your acanthodian fossils to discuss the evolutionary relationship between acanthodians and chondrichthyans. I'm not positive on the current thinking, but I believe Acanthodii is regarded as a paraphyletic group with members in both Osteichthyes and Chondrichthyes.

[fossilsonwheels]

9 hours ago, Mediospirifer said:

My only experience with Devonian shark teeth is from the North Evans limestone. That's a beach lag deposit that (at the Penn-Dixie quarry) directly underlies the Genundewa. I've found four micro shark teeth from the small amount I've dissolved in vinegar. It's a very rich deposit, and a small amount kept me busy for quite a while.

 

I don't have a reference for ID-ing shark teeth, unfortunately. I was more focused on the (plentiful!) conodonts from this matrix. 

 

Want some? I have several bags of chunks around for tradebait.  Drop me a PM if you want to work something out.

 

I will drop you a PM today. I can post some images from a publication that described a couple of species that may help with the ID of the shark teeth. Different formation but same basic time frame. Off the top of my head I want to say it is New Albany Shale. I saw some teeth on line from Penn Dixie that seemed to match at least one of the sharks in that publication 

[fossilsonwheels]

9 hours ago, connorp said:

If you have no luck in your search, you could use your acanthodian fossils to discuss the evolutionary relationship between acanthodians and chondrichthyans. I'm not positive on the current thinking, but I believe Acanthodii is regarded as a paraphyletic group with members in both Osteichthyes and Chondrichthyes.

That is the plan with the Diplacanthus. I believe you are correct and the research done on Doliodus is pretty strong evidence of the link. That is what will TRY to explain, we’ll see how well we do that lol

[Jeffrey P]

I recall a freshwater shark found at Red Hill, PA. You may want to check out the website "Devonian Times." Also, the Cleveland Museum of Natural History has a prolific collection of Devonian sharks found nearby.  

[fossilsonwheels]

6 hours ago, Jeffrey P said:

I recall a freshwater shark found at Red Hill, PA. You may want to check out the website "Devonian Times." Also, the Cleveland Museum of Natural History has a prolific collection of Devonian sharks found nearby.  

Thank you for those suggestions ! I will check both sites out.

[siteseer]

On 1/9/2020 at 7:54 PM, fossilsonwheels said:

I have done this periodically on the forum with quite a bit of success so I thought we would try it again. I am working on going deeper into shark evolution in our programs and expanding  the range of sharks we cover by a few million years. We are set with our Cenozoic and Mesozoic sharks but we are still tinkering with the Paleozoic sharks. Currently the goal is extending the timeline backward and covering the very early sharks. Our earliest shark fossils were 340 million years old but we have been able to find a few that are older and really help us but I am wondering if we can find more.

 

We recently acquired some Chondrichthyes scales from the Harding Sandstone. While likely not "true" shark scales, they are a link in the chain which is what we need. I think this was a good starting point. We also picked up a Diplacanthus fossil from Scotland which gives us a nice example of what the ancestors of sharks were and again provides us with another link in the chain. Carter and I both thought these were fossils we needed to add to really show the kids shark evolution through the fossils. 

 

We also picked up some micro fossils from the Genudewa Limestone of New York which should provide some interesting shark material. This formation is the same age (Givetian) and same general location (New York) as the formation that Wellerodus is described from. There are teeth and denticles that are at least superficially pretty close to those of Wellerodus. This is probably our best shot at finding shark fossils that could potentially be from Antarticlamnidae. I know there are also teeth found in these micros that look Cladodont in nature as well.

 

Outside of these micro fossils, I am coming up blank on Devonian shark fossils. I have been researching the heck out of Paleozoic sharks and I know the Devonian stuff is rare but I have seen a little bit in collections so in my mind it might be possible to add a tooth or some denticles from other formations. Obviously we are not looking for a full shark fossil from the Cleveland Shale or anything like that but I believe we can scrounge up some additional fossils from the Devonian. None of my usual sources have turned up any material at all so we need a push start here lol

 

So TFF friends, share your knowledge with us if you can. What, if any, options are there as far as Devonian shark teeth or denticles that appear on the market ? Are there formations that we should look into that people collect from? Basically any information that we can get might be helpful. The goal is filling in that timeline of sharks and we have a bunch of shark programs this winter and spring so this is the collecting priority for us. 

 

Thank you in advance for any and all replies !

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Kurt,

 

Yeah, Devonian sharks are a challenge.  We all hear about Cladoselache but what you don't hear is that it's very tough to get any teeth from it.  A friend once had a tooth and a piece of matrix with a few teeth in it but that was all he was able to get.  Sometimes, you hear about someone with a near-complete body fossil (tail is usually gone) but that kind of thing goes up for auction.  There were at least a couple of them for sale in October of 2018 at an auction in Cleveland.  The bidding went into the stratosphere even for specimens that were going to need some prep.  I heard there were a couple of placoderm pieces too.

 

Anyway, there was a time when some shark teeth (Ageleodus) from Red Hill (PA) were on the market so you can watch for that. 

 

Some micro-teeth and scales come out of the Maple Mill Formation near Kalona, Iowa.

 

Jess

 

 

 

[minnbuckeye]

Google "Maple Mill Formation near Kalona, Iowa." They have relatively inexpensive Devonian Shark teeth for sale (D and D Fossils).

 

[fossilsonwheels]

6 hours ago, siteseer said:

 

 

Hi Kurt,

 

Yeah, Devonian sharks are a challenge.  We all hear about Cladoselache but what you don't hear is that it's very tough to get any teeth from it.  A friend once had a tooth and a piece of matrix with a few teeth in it but that was all he was able to get.  Sometimes, you hear about someone with a near-complete body fossil (tail is usually gone) but that kind of thing goes up for auction.  There were at least a couple of them for sale in October of 2018 at an auction in Cleveland.  The bidding went into the stratosphere even for specimens that were going to need some prep.  I heard there were a couple of placoderm pieces too.

 

Anyway, there was a time when some shark teeth (Ageleodus) from Red Hill (PA) were on the market so you can watch for that. 

 

Some micro-teeth and scales come out of the Maple Mill Formation near Kalona, Iowa.

 

Jess

 

 

 

Hi Jess

 

I am not even bothering with Cladoselache lol Even if we found one, no way we could afford it. I have seen Carboniferous Ageleodus teeth but none from the Devonian. I will keep searching.

 

I have contacted a source about Maple Mill stuff. Have not heard back from him but I can always buy his micro matrix and sort through it. We already have some micros from Genudewa on the way so I think between that and Maple Mill we can cover a few Devonian sharks. I hope the New York micros give us something along the lines of Wellerodus but we will take whatever we can find.

 

Thanks for the input. It is always nice to get your thoughts.

 

Kurt

[fossilsonwheels]

2 hours ago, minnbuckeye said:

Google "Maple Mill Formation near Kalona, Iowa." They have relatively inexpensive Devonian Shark teeth for sale (D and D Fossils).

 

I forgot to mention that formation in my post but I already contacted Kieran. Have not heard back from him but I can always buy some of micros off online and sort through it. Thank you for the suggestion

[connorp]

7 hours ago, fossilsonwheels said:

I forgot to mention that formation in my post but I already contacted Kieran. Have not heard back from him but I can always buy some of micros off online and sort through it. Thank you for the suggestion

I just ordered that from him. I will post some pics of my finds when I get it.

[jdp]

14 hours ago, siteseer said:

 

 

Hi Kurt,

 

Yeah, Devonian sharks are a challenge.  We all hear about Cladoselache but what you don't hear is that it's very tough to get any teeth from it.  A friend once had a tooth and a piece of matrix with a few teeth in it but that was all he was able to get.  Sometimes, you hear about someone with a near-complete body fossil (tail is usually gone) but that kind of thing goes up for auction.  There were at least a couple of them for sale in October of 2018 at an auction in Cleveland.  The bidding went into the stratosphere even for specimens that were going to need some prep.  I heard there were a couple of placoderm pieces too.

 

Anyway, there was a time when some shark teeth (Ageleodus) from Red Hill (PA) were on the market so you can watch for that. 

 

Some micro-teeth and scales come out of the Maple Mill Formation near Kalona, Iowa.

 

Jess

 

 

 

Much of the Cleveland Shale material that currently resides in museums was collected in association with the federal interstate project. You really just aren't going to come across enough of those concretions unless you're moving the industrial-level amounts of rock required to build massive roadcuts. So, all those concretions in museums were collected at that time.

 

It's not a matter of expense per se. It's simply that no one is excavating at that scale these days.

[fossilsonwheels]

2 hours ago, connorp said:

I just ordered that from him. I will post some pics of my finds when I get it.

Awesome. I look forward to seeing what you find. I really did not want to get more micros as we already have the Genudewa stuff that we will have to sort through but it seems that is our best bet. I preferred buying the teeth from Maple Mill as I’m pretty thin on time. My kids call that a “first world problem” lol 

[connorp]

1 hour ago, fossilsonwheels said:

Awesome. I look forward to seeing what you find. I really did not want to get more micros as we already have the Genudewa stuff that we will have to sort through but it seems that is our best bet. I preferred buying the teeth from Maple Mill as I’m pretty thin on time. My kids call that a “first world problem” lol 

If I find many duplicates I’d be happy to send you some. I can let you know once I’ve started sorting 

[fossilsonwheels]

1 hour ago, connorp said:

If I find many duplicates I’d be happy to send you some. I can let you know once I’ve started sorting 

I will return the favor if we have any luck with the Genudewa formation micros !

[minnbuckeye]

On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2020 at 3:20 AM, siteseer said:

Some micro-teeth and scales come out of the Maple Mill Formation near Kalona, Iowa.

 

 @fossilsonwheels

I have done a little research on this location and concluded that the sharks teeth are probably coming from the  base of the Wassonville (Mississipian), not the Maple Mills (Devonian). I was asked NOT to share the research material provided to me, but it looked fairly conclusive to me.
 

[connorp]

4 hours ago, minnbuckeye said:

I was asked NOT to share the research material provided to me, but it looked fairly conclusive to me.

Can I ask why not?

[fossilselachian]

Here is a poor quality pic of a Cladoselache tooth from the Cleveland Shale. This tooth was acquired years ago at the MAPS fossil show. A second larger piece of shale was also available with multiple teeth but obtained by another collector.

[minnbuckeye]

1 hour ago, connorp said:

Can I ask why not?

 @connorpAll I know is that I was graciously messaged some informative research info and asked NOT to disseminate it. It was for my use only. Beyond that, as Sargent Schultz says "I know nothing".

 

 Mike

[fossilsonwheels]

6 hours ago, minnbuckeye said:

 

 @fossilsonwheels

I have done a little research on this location and concluded that the sharks teeth are probably coming from the  base of the Wassonville (Mississipian), not the Maple Mills (Devonian). I was asked NOT to share the research material provided to me, but it looked fairly conclusive to me.
 

That is interesting information but we can not really use it since you can’t share it, which I understand completely. We do not yet even have Maple Mill stuff. If/when we get some we may just refer to them as D/C boundary sharks. 

[fossilsonwheels]

1 hour ago, fossilselachian said:

Here is a poor quality pic of a Cladoselache tooth from the Cleveland Shale. This tooth was acquired years ago at the MAPS fossil show. A second larger piece of shale was also available with multiple teeth but obtained by another collector.

That is awesome !! Thank you for sharing that super cool tooth. 

[minnbuckeye]

1 hour ago, fossilsonwheels said:

we may just refer to them as D/C boundary sharks

That sounds like a good way to avoid problems.

[connorp]

On 1/12/2020 at 7:42 AM, minnbuckeye said:

base of the Wassonville (Mississipian), not the Maple Mills (Devonian).

 

Does the Wassonville overlie Maple Mills?

[ThePhysicist]

On 1/12/2020 at 6:42 AM, minnbuckeye said:

I have done a little research on this location and concluded that the sharks teeth are probably coming from the  base of the Wassonville (Mississipian), not the Maple Mills (Devonian). I was asked NOT to share the research material provided to me, but it looked fairly conclusive to me.

@minnbuckeye can you now relieve us from hearsay?  (found the thread @Misha)