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blackmoth

Large neuropteris frond?

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blackmoth

found this piece in a CP(early P or  late C) stratum west of beijing, China, in which the most common stuff is neuropteris ovata.

The vein is obvously neuropteris type, as can be seen easly under the sun, if not in the pic.

The stem is about 5mm wide, which can be used as the scale.

I have never seen neuropteris with this shape and size.

80d5501d659f4712d74e7e3c9e2c8e6.jpg

5bddcc35f284ae2935172de230e315b.jpg

20189da67fccd33d9864074e5e43d52.jpg

Edited by blackmoth
typo

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Rockwood

Forgive my ignorance, but what do you find unusual about it ?

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blackmoth
1 hour ago, Rockwood said:

Forgive my ignorance, but what do you find unusual about it ?

 The size and shape.   I could not find any description od any neuropteris of  early permian/late carboniferous period that matches this.

 

What could it be?   any specific speciece name?  Or just Neuropters sp.

This one looks kind of close, or N. collinsi.

 

Edited by blackmoth
typo

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Fossildude19

Cyclopteris maybe? 

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Rockwood
15 minutes ago, blackmoth said:

The size and shape.  

I suspect it is from the proximal end of a frond. Would it not be expected that a pinnule in that position sometimes be smaller and a bit misshapen even if the outline is completely preserved ?

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Bguild
44 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

Cyclopteris maybe? 

 

That's what came to mind for me at first glance.

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Rockwood

But what happens when you identify the one other side of the rachis ? Shouldn't they be the same ?

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Fossildude19
3 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

But what happens when you identify the one other side of the rachis ? Shouldn't they be the same ?

Hence, the question mark. ;) 

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paleoflor

Have a look at the collections of the Swedish Museum of Natural History, they have a nice online database with Permo-Carboniferous plant fossils from China (LINK).

Perhaps you can find a match there.

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Rockwood
1 hour ago, paleoflor said:

Have a look at the collections of the Swedish Museum of Natural History, they have a nice online database with Permo-Carboniferous plant fossils from China (LINK). Perhaps you can find a match there.

You are suggesting it is complete and representative enough to do so ? 

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Mark Kmiecik

Not Cyclopteris. I'm leaning toward Macroneuropteris gigantea, due to size and lack of basal pinnules.

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blackmoth
8 hours ago, Mark Kmiecik said:

Not Cyclopteris. I'm leaning toward Macroneuropteris gigantea, due to size and lack of basal pinnules.

  Macroneuropteris gigantea= Neuropteris gigantea?

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paleoflor

The combination Macroneuropteris gigantea is unknown to me also. Probably either Neuropteris (Paripterisgigantea or a different species of Macroneuropteris was meant. Some forms of the latter genus do indeed resemble your specimen. Problem I had with this option is that the genus does not occur on the species lists on the Swedish Museum of Natural History website. Then again, Macroneuropteris was only coined by Cleal et al. somewhere in the late eighties early nineties, while the species lists on the museum website could be based on older literature...

 

A few years back I tried to find more info on Macroneuropteris in relation to the find below.

 

 

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Fossildude19
14 hours ago, Mark Kmiecik said:

Not Cyclopteris. I'm leaning toward Macroneuropteris gigantea, due to size and lack of basal pinnules.

But again, the Macroneuropteris gigantea has a very strong midvein to the pinnules. 

I came across this in researching M. gigantea. 

This one looks more similar to the OP's item than does M. gigantea

Neuropteris collinsi:                                                                                                  Macroneuropteris gigantea

 

GL059Neuropteris03CB.jpg                       versus          GL059Neuropteris04CB.jpg         

 

LINK

 

But again, this does not show up on the Museum list Tim provided.  :( 

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Rockwood

Thanks. I feel a little less ignorant now. :)

I had missed the concept entirely for a while there.

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Mark Kmiecik

I was under the impression that the entire genus Neuropteris had been reclassified to Macroneuropteris. I'm losing track of what's what nowadays.

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