Kem Kem Vertebrae ID (Croc/Dino?)

[DinoFossilsUK]

Looking for a little help identifying some small Kem Kem vertebrae.  I have some ideas as to what they might be, but I'm sure I'll be corrected.  Hopefully the answers will prove useful to anyone else trying to identify Kem Kem verts too!  So here's what I think these are:

 

Vert 1: Small theropod, possibly a juvenile spino? (or maybe crocodile)

Vert 2: Crocodile

Vert 3: Crocodile?

Vert 4: Theropod dinosaur

Vert 5: Theropod dinosaur (looked a little similar to an Abelisaur vertebra I've come across on the forum before)

[DinoFossilsUK]

Oh, and I also have a few bones - two limb bone (right) and something else (far left, I thought maybe part of a chevron but on closer inspection it didn't look right).  I have no idea as to what these are crocodile or dinosaur, but if anyone could shed any light it'd be much appreciated!

[Max-fossils]

@Haravex, @gigantoraptor and @LordTrilobite know their Kem Kem material pretty well I believe, maybe they can give their opinion  

[LordTrilobite]

2 hours ago, DinoFossilsUK said:

Looking for a little help identifying some small Kem Kem vertebrae.  I have some ideas as to what they might be, but I'm sure I'll be corrected.  Hopefully the answers will prove useful to anyone else trying to identify Kem Kem verts too!  So here's what I think these are:

 

Vert 1: Small theropod, possibly a juvenile spino? (or maybe crocodile)

Vert 2: Crocodile

Vert 3: Crocodile?

Vert 4: Theropod dinosaur

Vert 5: Theropod dinosaur (looked a little similar to an Abelisaur vertebra I've come across on the forum before)

I think you're mostly correct with your IDs here. The first one does look a bit like a spino dorsal. Although it might be a little bit on the fat side, there is some variation in fatness in the dorsal vertebrae.

 

2 and 3 both look like croc to me.

 

Vert 4 shows some similarities with one of my Abelisauroid caudal verts. An important bit is the lateral edge on the centrum though, which yours doesn't have as pronounced. I'd suggest checking out both Abelisaurids and Noasaurids

 

 

Vert 5, could be theropod but not sure.

 

2 hours ago, DinoFossilsUK said:

Oh, and I also have a few bones - two limb bone (right) and something else (far left, I thought maybe part of a chevron but on closer inspection it didn't look right).  I have no idea as to what these are crocodile or dinosaur, but if anyone could shed any light it'd be much appreciated!

Not sure about the first. The middle bone looks a bit dubious, might have been composited from different bones. I would suggest a good clean to any possible seams will become clear.

The third one is a humerus. Looks like possible croc.

[Troodon]

 

1) Definitely not spino /theropod 

2) Croc

3) Croc

4) Possible Kemkemia because of flat sides.

5) Undetermined, process added one end restored

 

Bones the one on the right is Croc. others unknown

[DinoFossilsUK]

Thank you for the help guys, looks like I was a little off on a couple of them!

[Haravex]

The bone on the right is a crocodile femur, I will echo Troodons comments and will add some additions the first vertebrae is rather odd and I suspect dorsal, and the firth vertebrae has been to heavily tampered with to make any real analysis. The fourth vertebrae compares well to kemkemia (see attached) this species of crocodile originally also had researchers puzzled and initially assigned it to the abelsauridae/noasauridae family until the conclusion was reached it actually belonged to a crocodilyform.

[DinoFossilsUK]

Wow, I would never have thought vert 4 could be a croc vertebra.  But you're right, it's a good match.  And I suspected the last vert might be impossible to ID due to the repairs/additions.

[MarcoSr]

@Troodon and @LordTrilobite  All of the crocodile vertebrae that I see from the Paleocene, Eocene and Miocene of Maryland and Virginia US have a very distinct ball on one end and a very distinct socket on the other end.  Do the crocodile vertebrae from the Cretaceous of Morocco not have a distinct ball and socket or are the ends of specimens 2 and 3 in this post damaged/eroded on the ball end.

 

Marco Sr.

[DinoFossilsUK]

5 minutes ago, MarcoSr said:

@Troodon and @LordTrilobite  All of the crocodile vertebrae that I see from the Paleocene, Eocene and Miocene of Maryland and Virginia US have a very distinct ball on one end and a very distinct socket on the other end.  Do the crocodile vertebrae from the Cretaceous of Morocco not have a distinct ball and socket or are the ends of specimens 2 and 3 in this post damaged/eroded on the ball end.

 

Marco Sr.

I've often wondered this about crocodile verts.  I always thought the key defining feature of a crocodile vertebra was the ball on one end, but apparently that's not the case.  I'm not sure if it's to do with the position of the vertebra or maybe cretaceous age crocodile vertebrae were different.  I'd love to hear what @Troodon @LordTrilobite and @Haravex have to say about this.

[Ruger9a]

19 hours ago, LordTrilobite said:

I think you're mostly correct with your IDs here. The first one does look a bit like a spino dorsal. Although it might be a little bit on the fat side, there is some variation in fatness in the dorsal vertebrae.

 

2 and 3 both look like croc to me.

 

Vert 4 shows some similarities with one of my Abelisauroid caudal verts. An important bit is the lateral edge on the centrum though, which yours doesn't have as pronounced. I'd suggest checking out both Abelisaurids and Noasaurids

 

 

Vert 5, could be theropod but not sure.

 

Not sure about the first. The middle bone looks a bit dubious, might have been composited from different bones. I would suggest a good clean to any possible seams will become clear.

The third one is a humerus. Looks like possible croc.

I absolutely LOVE the 3D imaging!!!!!!!  

[Troodon]

Lots of Crocodylomorph in the Kem Kem but not a lot published to see all the variations but its pretty typically not to have a ball in socket.  Makes identification harder and lots of sellers identify them as Dinosaurian 

 

Some examples include the Kemkemia shown above.

 

 

You also see it in Hell Creek Vertebrae

[MarcoSr]

58 minutes ago, Troodon said:

Lots of Crocodylomorph in the Kem Kem but not a lot published to see all the variations but its pretty typically not to have a ball in socket.  Makes identification harder and lots of sellers identify them as Dinosaurian 

 

Some examples include the Kemkemia shown above.

 

You also see it in Hell Creek Vertebrae

 

 

This is very interesting.  But are these Cretaceous species truly reptile and truly crocodilian?   Are they being identified as crocodilian based upon the skull and body form?  I've collected many hundreds of reptile vertebrae from the Paleocene to the present like snake (both marine and terrestrial) and lizard and crocodile and turtle (both marine and terrestrial) and with the exception of some turtle vertebrae which are convex on both ends (ball on each end) all of these vertebrae that I've collected had a ball and socket.  Amphibian vertebrae that I've collected in this same time period like frogs, toads and salamanders tend to have a socket on both ends of the vertebrae although there are exceptions here.  Is it possible that these Crocodylmorphs might be closer related to dinosaurs or even amphibians than to reptiles?

 

Marco Sr.

[Haravex]

Very good point you have brought up Marco I'm not knowledgeable enough in the exact facts to add to this however this is Sarchosuchus

[Troodon]

 Those from the Kem Kem are described as crocodyliformes and crocodylomorpha.  Elosuchus one of the largst in the Kem Kem is a Pholidosauridae is an extinct family of aquatic neosuchian mesoeucrocodylian.  Sarcosuchus shown above is from the same family.

[MarcoSr]

From what I can find on the web, Pholidosauridae are in the class Reptilia.  So it is very interesting to me to see vertebrae with a socket (concave) on both ends.  I definitely wouldn't have expected that.  So I learned something from this post and the replies.  Thank you for posting.

 

Marco Sr.

[LordTrilobite]

Yes, many croc caudals don't have the ball and socket centra. But I have seen croc verts from the Kem Kem beds that do have it.

 

8 hours ago, Haravex said:

The bone on the right is a crocodile femur

Are you sure that's a femur? It looks more like humerus to me. The possible bulge that could be deltopectoral crest/trocanther seems too large for a femur.

[Haravex]

I was comparing it to this image of a humerus however upon further research I would agree. As a side note is there any good crocodile skeletal models for educational research, I find constantly I am struggling with the identification of these fossils and to have in hand a model when I could examine individual bones will help a lot.

[Vic191]

Hey there! On the same topic what do you thibk of these 15cm vertebrra. Look like crocodiliform but not sure...

[Vic191]