Shellseeker Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 I was out to a marine location today, and besides some nicely colored little shark teeth, there were 2 items that are trip makers. One is a small piece of coral, 2+ inches wide. I would love an Identification, but I have other simpler questions. This piece of coral looks "complete". Is it? What happened to whatever it was attached to? Because there are polyp remains in the "holes", does that mean the holes were original? There are about 200-300 polyps on top of the coral.. Did this coral "die" at that point or could it have grown larger? much larger. I am relatively new to coral fossils. Any insights unique to this fossil are greatly appreciated!! 3 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 The coral died when sea level dropped during the last faze of the Pleistocene glaciation 14.438 thousand years ago. It was broken from a limestone outcrop by a native named Argka to use smoothing the seat of his dugout canoe. Those aren't polyps. It's the cypress fibers from the canoe seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 5 hours ago, Rockwood said: The coral died when sea level dropped during the last faze of the Pleistocene glaciation 14.438 thousand years ago. It was broken from a limestone outcrop by a native named Argka to use smoothing the seat of his dugout canoe. Those aren't polyps. It's the cypress fibers from the canoe seat. Thanks for the insightful response. . I always like to consider the questions and wonder about the unknowable... http://www.flseagrant.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/SLR-Fact-Sheet_dual-column-letterhead_8.2.13_pdf.pdf Following your thoughts, I found this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Post-Glacial_Sea_Level.png So a very likely cause of ANY coral demise, resulting in fossil coral is the drastic changes in sea level over the eons... A coral existing in the relatively shallow, sunlight infused salt water 30 miles inland (more likely about 8000 years ago to obtain optimum water depth for coral ) from the current edge of the Gulf of Mexico as the saltwater rose would have died from the lack of sunlight...OR cooling temperatures, 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippa Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Looks a bit similar to Hexagonaria a colonial rugose coral from Lake Michigan. Yours seems to have more star shaped septa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Shellseeker said: I always like to consider the questions and wonder about the unknowable. The knowable starts with the imaginable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeymig Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Research Montastraea coral. 1 Many times I've wondered how much there is to know. led zeppelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oyo Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Siderastrea. Complet colony, yes. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeR Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Hi Jack I got your pm. The best online resource for corals is the NMITA website LINK. It is not the easiest to use because it assumes you know a little about coral taxonomy to search in the individual families. I have been collecting in the coral facies of the Tamiami for the past few years and have forced myself to learn about corals although they are always difficult to identify. Yours is Siderastrea pliocenica LINK found in both the Tamiami and Caloosahatchee Formations. Mike 4 "A problem solved is a problem caused"--Karl Pilkington "I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit." -- Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 57 minutes ago, MikeR said: Hi Jack I got your pm. The best online resource for corals is the NMITA website LINK. It is not the easiest to use because it assumes you know a little about coral taxonomy to search in the individual families. I have been collecting in the coral facies of the Tamiami for the past few years and have forced myself to learn about corals although they are always difficult to identify. Yours is Siderastrea pliocenica LINK found in both the Tamiami and Caloosahatchee Formations. Mike Mike, Thank you. With this identification, I am thinking Siderastrea pliocenica for the bottom fossil and Dichocoenia_stokesi ?? for the top 2 fossils. and also Dichocoenia_stokesi for the following 2... These 4 have some differences but also seem very similar. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 7 hours ago, oyo said: Siderastrea. Complet colony, yes. Good work! Hello, and a very warm welcome to TFF from Morocco. Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 A couple of more corals, with my tentative IDs, from the same location: So, at least 4 types of small corals, with some or most present in modern Florida waters. Do any of these tend to identify the Formation or time frame (Pleistocene, Miocene, Pliocene) of the location ? 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Tidgy's Dad said: Good work! Hello, and a very warm welcome to TFF from Morocco. Absolutely Agree, @oyo. Welcome to TFF, Thanks for the response. A single "Yes" to possibly multiple questions: Because there are polyp remains in the "holes", does that mean the holes were original? There are about 200-300 polyps on top of the coral.. Did this coral "die" at that point or could it have grown larger? much larger. 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippa Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Shellseeker said: There are about 200-300 polyps on top of the coral.. It seems you mix up the terms polyp and corallite. The polyps lived inside the fossilized corallites that are visible all around your rock. No polyps are present, they do not fossilize. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted March 6, 2020 Author Share Posted March 6, 2020 1 minute ago, Pippa said: It seems you mix up the terms polyp and corallite. The polyps lived inside the fossilized corallites that are visible all around your rock. No polyps are present, they do not fossilize. Agree, you are correct. There are no polyps left here. Jack The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oyo Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 7 hours ago, Pippa said: It seems you mix up the terms polyp and corallite. The polyps lived inside the fossilized corallites that are visible all around your rock. No polyps are present, they do not fossilize. Good clarification 9 hours ago, Shellseeker said: Absolutely Agree, @oyo. Welcome to TFF, Thanks for the response. A single "Yes" to possibly multiple questions: Because there are polyp remains in the "holes", does that mean the holes were original? There are about 200-300 polyps on top of the coral.. Did this coral "die" at that point or could it have grown larger? much larger. Yes, I think the holes were original. Probably caused by some kind of litophago or something that encompassed the colony in its growth. Hard to insure. And yes, the coral could have grown larger, even much larger. @ Tidgy's Dad, @Shellseeker. Thanks for the welcome. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted March 6, 2020 Author Share Posted March 6, 2020 For those like me who are not familiar with the word: Quote Lithophaga, the date mussels, are a genus of medium-sized marine bivalve molluscs in the family Mytilidae. Some of the earliest fossil Lithophaga shells have been found in Mesozoic rocks from the Alps and from Vancouver Island.[2][3] The shells of species in this genus are long and narrow with parallel sides. The animals bore into stone or coral rock with the help of pallial gland secretions,[4] hence the systematic name Lithophaga, which means "stone-eater". Their club-shaped borings are given the trace fossil name Gastrochaenolites.[3] I have seen numerous similar boring holes in dugong ribs and even in Megalodon roots. Maybe this bivalve or a related one. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted March 6, 2020 Author Share Posted March 6, 2020 @MikeR For whatever reason, I have a broken LINK, Quote Yours is Siderastrea pliocenica LINK found in both the Tamiami and Caloosahatchee Formations. In searching for additional details on Siderastrea pliocenica, I found this website, which has a few corals but a lot of great details on the ones it does have. https://neogeneatlas.net/species/siderastrea-pliocenica/ The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oyo Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) @Shellseeker. Try this link to NMITA. https://fossils.its.uiowa.edu/nmita/genusList.page?familyName=Siderastreidae Edited March 6, 2020 by oyo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeR Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 22 hours ago, Shellseeker said: Mike, Thank you. With this identification, I am thinking Siderastrea pliocenica for the bottom fossil and Dichocoenia_stokesi ?? for the top 2 fossils. and also Dichocoenia_stokesi for the following 2... These 4 have some differences but also seem very similar. The first are very worn however I think all of them are Dichocoenia caloosahatchiensis. The coralites are different on D. stokesi as follows: 1 "A problem solved is a problem caused"--Karl Pilkington "I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit." -- Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeR Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 22 hours ago, Shellseeker said: A couple of more corals, with my tentative IDs, from the same location: So, at least 4 types of small corals, with some or most present in modern Florida waters. Do any of these tend to identify the Formation or time frame (Pleistocene, Miocene, Pliocene) of the location ? The coral head is Solenastrea hyades. I would need a side view of the other but it is either Placocyathus or Thysanus. "A problem solved is a problem caused"--Karl Pilkington "I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit." -- Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted March 6, 2020 Author Share Posted March 6, 2020 7 minutes ago, MikeR said: The coral head is Solenastrea hyades. I would need a side view of the other but it is either Placocyathus or Thysanus. I can see that I am not that close in differentiating these corals. I'll work on it. Thanks for your skills and expertise. 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeR Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 I think that is Thysanus excentricus. Try this page for more coral examples LINK. "A problem solved is a problem caused"--Karl Pilkington "I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit." -- Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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