Red Flags on Madagascar Dinosaur Teeth

[Troodon]

Dinosaur teeth from Madagascar are frequently misidentified since very little has been published and specific localities are rarely cited, known or accurate.  Without an accurate provenance its very difficult to properly assign teeth to any specific genus/species if any are actually described..   Here are a few examples of teeth that are currently being offered for sale.

 

This tooth is being represented as Majungatholus from the Maevarano formation of Madagascar.   Majungatholus is an Abelisaurid unfortunately this morphology is not even close to being one.   Its an indeterminate theropod tooth.   Weak provenance does not help.

 

Below I Included a photo of a Majungatholus tooth.

DENTAL MORPHOLOGY AND VARIATION IN MAJUNGASAURUS CRENATISSIMUS (THEROPODA:ABELISAURIDAE) FROM THE LATE CRETACEOUS OF MADAGASCAR by Joshua B. Smith 2010

 

 

This tooth is being represented as a very rare Rapetosaurus sauropod from the Maevarano formation.   Again the morphology does not even come close to what a Rapetosaurus tooth looks like its spoon shaped not peg like.  Below I've added a photo of what one looks like.  Weak provenance does not help..

 

 

The last of the dinosaur titans: A new sauropod from Madagascar by Rogers, Foster 2001

 

 

This tooth is being represented as a Maxillary Bothriospondylus sauropod from Kamoro of Madagascar.  The provenance is very weak and the spoon shape points to a couple of possible candidates including Bothrio. depending on formation.   

 

 

Additional cautionary note:

The state of accurate identifications of dinosaur material is the worst I've ever seen.  Please dont trust anything you see sold online by auction sites, trusted dealers, those you've done business with, other collectors or at shops or shows when they get back up and running.  Do yourself a favor PLEASE have everything checked out by knowledgeable individuals 

[FossilNerd]

Thanks for the warning Frank and a big THANK YOU for the pictures!  Seeing your provided photos of what the seller’s tooth should actually look like were they the genus/species they say they are is a big help. Just comparing the photos shows how off the IDs are. 
 

It really drives home your point of knowing what you are buying before you do, and to be cautious no matter the seller’s reputation. I think researching a purchase is a good philosophy to have in general, but is especially true with fossils.

[Troodon]

The provenance of Dino material from Madagascar is a lot like South America.  Diggers are not that knowledgeable of the layers they are in and then the specimens pass through many many hands before it gets to the collector.   So unless a tooth has a distinctive morphology its going to be difficult to ID it along with the fact so little is described to a genus/species.

 

7 hours ago, FossilNerd said:

It really drives home your point of knowing what you are buying before you do, and to be cautious no matter the seller’s reputation. I think researching a purchase is a good philosophy to have in general, but is especially true with fossils.

Well I hope everyone heeds the warning, unfortunately to many collectors act impulsively or are not aware of the Forum.

[FossilNerd]

6 hours ago, Troodon said:

 

Well I hope everyone heeds the warning, unfortunately to many collectors act impulsively or are not aware of the Forum.

Hopefully your warning helps a few people at least.  

 

When I first started collecting, I made a few impulsive buys myself. Luckily, I didn’t lose much on them. I don’t buy often, but I’ve since learned to have a little knowledge about something before I buy it.

 

A dinosaur specimen is on my bucket list, but I know next to nothing about them, so thanks to your warning posts like this, it’s a sure bet that I’ll be posting for opinions before I buy anything. 

[Troodon]

Another tooth popped up with this seller......being offered is a Premaxillary tooth from a Majungatholus from the Cretaceous of the Maevarano formation

 

 

Unfortunately this tooth is not even dinosaurian but belongs to the Jurassic archosaur Razanandrongobe sakalavae from the Isalo IIIb formation.  The denticles are very robust and unique to this species from Madagascar.  It also supports my previous comments on how poor the provenance can be from this region and should not be trusted.  Seller is claiming Cretaceous when its Jurassic.

 

Simone Maganuco, Cristiano Dal Sasso & Giovanni Pasini
A new large predatory archosaur from the Middle Jurassic (Bathonian) of Madagascar  2006

 

 

Example of what Majungatholus Premaxillary teeth look like with fine serrations.

DENTAL MORPHOLOGY AND VARIATION IN MAJUNGASAURUS CRENATISSIMUS (THEROPODA: ABELISAURIDAE) FROM THE LATE CRETACEOUS OF MADAGASCAR  by Joshua B. Smith 2010

 

@Masp

[Troodon]

Here are more examples of why collectors must verify what is being offered for sale

 

Another Rapetosaurus tooth bring offered from Madagascar.  Same comments as above...its provenance is also suspect.  Its an indeterminate tooth.

 

An Archaeodontosaurus tooth from Kamoro, Madagascar.    Provenance is questionable Kamoro us a river not a place.   These teeth do not come this size so it might be a Lapparentosaurus or Bothriospondylus depending on locality.

 

Problems are not limited to madagascar

 

Here is a Thescelosaurus tooth being offered from the Hell Creek...however  its  Ankylosaurus 

 

 

Or a Saurornitholestes tooth from the Judith...its size says no way possible could be a Richardoestesia or Tyrannosaurid, need closer photos.

 

There are lots more to show from lots of sources, hopfully sellers and collectors that see this get the picture.    If you are a seller reading this I can comfortably say your site probably has just has many issues.   Please have your material verified I will be happy to help.

[TyBoy]

I've seen similar discrepancies and the sad truth is that lots/most of these type of specimens get sold.   Collectors are too quick to accept what they see and sellers DO NOT do enough to verify what they have.    Identification of dinosaur material is very difficult for professionals how can sellers who flip product get it right.   Thank you for keeping this in front of us, now how do we get the message out to the masses 

[Jaimin013]

On 3/27/2020 at 12:21 PM, Troodon said:

Another tooth popped up with this seller......being offered is a Premaxillary tooth from a Majungatholus from the Cretaceous of the Maevarano formation

 

 

Unfortunately this tooth is not even dinosaurian but belongs to the Jurassic archosaur Razanandrongobe sakalavae from the Isalo IIIb formation.  The denticles are very robust and unique to this species from Madagascar.  It also supports my previous comments on how poor the provenance can be from this region and should not be trusted.  Seller is claiming Cretaceous when its Jurassic.

 

Simone Maganuco, Cristiano Dal Sasso & Giovanni Pasini
A new large predatory archosaur from the Middle Jurassic (Bathonian) of Madagascar  2006

 

 

Example of what Majungatholus Premaxillary teeth look like with fine serrations.

DENTAL MORPHOLOGY AND VARIATION IN MAJUNGASAURUS CRENATISSIMUS (THEROPODA: ABELISAURIDAE) FROM THE LATE CRETACEOUS OF MADAGASCAR  by Joshua B. Smith 2010

 

@Masp

Would 100% agree with you. It's actually really bad this has been labelled anything other than that! 

[julescena]

hi, im new on this forulm and know this seller quite good, how should i approach him?

[JohnJ]

13 minutes ago, julescena said:

hi, im new on this forulm and know this seller quite good, how should i approach him?

 

As has been explained to you previously, please do not discuss any sellers on TFF.  You are welcome to post and discuss any fossils.  Thanks.   

[Jaimin013]

Hi All,

 

This recent 2020 paper titled below by C. Hendrickx is very useful for those who have any theropod teeth that they think is from a dinosaur in the Abelisauridae family or anyone that's interested. The current study is the first to evaluate different methodological tools to identify isolated theropod teeth. With the added detailed description of the dental anatomy of Abelisauridae, it will also assist future authors to investigate the systematic paletontology of isolated theropod teeth with more confidence. It provides a cladistic analysis performed on a dentition-based data matrix scored across 105 theropod species and using a backbone topology as constraint, as well as discriminant cluster analyses conducted on a dataset of non-avian theropod crown measurements. Even though the cladistic technique appears to be the most reliable method to investigate the phylogenetic affinities of theropod teeth, they recommend using the three techniques described in the paper conjointly to corroborate the identification of isolated dental material.

 

I will update this post as I still have more to add but if I don't get around to it soon please have a read if interested.

 

"Taxonomic identification of isolated theropod teeth: The case of the shed tooth crown associated with Aerosteon (Theropoda: Megaraptora) and the dentition of Abelisauridae"

 

Thanks,

Jai

[Jaimin013]

Hi All,

 

Here is another fossil from Maevarano formation, Madgascar described as a Majungatholus (formerly called Majungasaurus) claw. Also described that it could also be a claw belonging to an undescribed raptor from the Maevarano formation but most likely it is Majungatholus. @Troodon 

 

Very little is published from this location. 

 

Thanks,

Jai

[Troodon]

 Nice claw unfortunately its not as claimed.   First like I've said many times before without a very specific locality one has to question the provenance of any material from Madagascar from any seller.   Very little is published from that locality but we do know something about Majungasaurus especially its hands and the claw being offered appears to be a hand claw. 

 

Here is the complete hand of a Majungasaurus so I ask you to compare the claw being offered to those in the photo.  Abelisaurids have very unusual hands not what you would expect from a theropod.  Foot claws of Abelisaurid are also different with a very different morphology.

 

The claw being offered is best described as an indeterminate theropod