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2 unknowns from SE Indiana


TK421

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Hello!  Amateur and fossil noob here.  I was wondering if you could help me to identify these two fossils from SE Indiana.  The first I found at the railroad rock cut in Madison Indiana* (corrected location below) loose on the hillside as is.  Crudely it looks like a twisted up starfish.  The second I found in the Waldron Shale piles that the Falls of the Ohio State Park (Clarksville Indiana) sets out for guests like me to dig through.  For the second, I wasn't sure if it was a small coral or part of a crinoid.  Thanks in advance - I really appreciate your help.

 

*EDIT - my mistake.  The first I found in Crawford County IN (Sulfur/English/I-64 rock cut).  I had visited a bunch of fossil sites in the area within a few days and mixed them up. Results in millions of years difference!

 

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unknown w penny.jpg

Edited by TK421
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That second specimen reminds me of the dasyclad Cyclocrinites sp., but there are other possibilities, of course. 

Order Dasycladales (calcareous green algae)[dasyclads]
   Family Dasycladaceae (extinct and recent)
   Family Receptaculitaceae (extinct)  
      Tribe Receptaculiteae [receptaculitids]
      Tribe Cyclocriniteae [cyclocrinitids]
         Genus Cyclocrinites
"Fossils of this order [dasyclads] are only rarely recognized by collectors.". . .
"Fossil dasyclads are globose to cylindrical or club shaped in outline. They grew on the sea floor to several centimenters in height.

 

 

algae_dasyclad_pseudomorph (5).jpg

algae_dasyclad_pseudomorph.jpg

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http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page

 

What seest thou else

In the dark backward and abysm of time?

---Shakespeare, The Tempest

 

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Very interesting and your pics certainly seem like this could be it - thanks!  I haven't come across much literature on this Order and so will do more reading.

 

Any ideas on my first pic from the Sulfur/English/I-64 rock cut (Mississippian)?  I had also sent pics to a few internet fossil ID sites for input but never received responses.

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14 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

That second specimen reminds me of the dasyclad Cyclocrinites sp., but there are other possibilities, of course. 

 

Another would be a favosite.

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On 5/9/2020 at 12:24 PM, TK421 said:

Waldron Shale piles that the Falls of the Ohio State Park

I just noticed this. Waldron Shale is Silurian. Falls of the Ohio is Devonian. Are you sure they haul in Waldron Shale? The reason I ask is that Devonian matrix is loaded with favosites. Not that Silurian rock can't have them. 

 

Mike

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This is just a guess about #1, but (if you really squint, and look out of the corner of your eye) it might be a heavily geodized crinoid calyx.  If it is, the original plate structure is obscured but it looks like you might be able to see where the stem was attached at the base of the calyx, and the general form of the arms.  Really just a guess, though.

 

Don

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9 hours ago, minnbuckeye said:

I just noticed this. Waldron Shale is Silurian. Falls of the Ohio is Devonian. Are you sure they haul in Waldron Shale? The reason I ask is that Devonian matrix is loaded with favosites. Not that Silurian rock can't have them. 

 

Mike

Yes, they have signs on stakes posted around the collecting piles that its Waldron Shale (apparently they bring it in from that Sellersburg IN quarry for guests).

20200511_053718.jpg

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By the way, can anyone tell us what stage the Waldron shale is? We always see things like "Middle Silurian", and dates like 425 million but what does this mean in terms of stages? If that date is correct, that would put it in the Ludlovian series, Gorstian or Ludfordian stage... but is it not actually Wendlockian, and if so, would that be the Sheinwoodian or Homerian stage, or does it span both? Or maybe state it in North American terms, Niagaran series (Tonawandan or Lockportian stage) or Cayugan (Canastotan...)?

 

 

 

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Droste and Shaver, on the Indiana University Geo page

 

"Correlation: Hall (1882, p. 219-220) favored a middle Niagaran age for the Waldron comparable to part of the Rochester Shale of the northeastern states and was followed in that preference by Berry and Boucot (1970, p. 249-250) and Shaver (Shaver and others, 1970, p. 187). Physical tracing of Silurian units from the western New York standard westward across the Appalachian Basin (especially by Rickard, 1969, and Janssens, 1977) shows, however, that the Waldron must be assigned a Niagaran stratigraphic position well above that of the Rochester of western New York and also above that of the Rochester of Janssens (1977) of western Ohio. In western Ohio terms, this position is in the upper part of the Lockport Group where the upper boundary of this group has been extended upward to accommodate a westward facies change in the rocks lying above the Lockport of eastern locales in British terms its position is upper Wenlockian. (See, for example, Shaver and others, 1985.)"

 

(I can probably locate and provide the cited papers if need be)

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...How to Philosophize with a Hammer

 

 

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Thanks. So it could be described as Lockportian in the North American scale? That would make it equivalent to the Upper Wenlockian, ie. Homerian. It seems to fit.

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See if this helps:

The cyclocrinitids range from Middle Ordovician to Middle Silurian in various limestones and dolomites of the Indiana-Ohio-Kentucky Platform.  Cyclocrintes appears most widely in these rocks.  Illustrated is a specimen from Late Ordovician, Cincinnatian Stage, Richmondian Series, near Madison, Indiana.

 

5ebafe46b0fca_algaecyclocrinitidrange.jpg.75396ffe2267b347bf23b8a254998aa7.jpg

http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page

 

What seest thou else

In the dark backward and abysm of time?

---Shakespeare, The Tempest

 

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The last one is Favosites forbesi from the Waldron, they usually have a crinoid stem in the middle as they grow around the crinoid stem. try removing it and you will see the stem.   I really enjoy the Waldron. The first one looks similar to a coprolite but maybe to large for that locations. Packy 

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  • 1 year later...

the Waldron is considered Homerian(possibly diachronous).

There is evidence from isotope chemostratigraphy for the Mulde event.

Conodonts are either absent ,or chronostratigraphically equivocal

 

 

Edited by doushantuo

 

 

 

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