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Silurian crinoids - need your help

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RuMert

Great specimens, preservation and photos, pity can't add much information:unsure:

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FossilDAWG

Calyx # 1 is quite nice.  Not sure of the ID, but maybe @crinus can help.  I don't think calyx 2 is actually a calyx, at least I do not see organization into basals, radials etc.  Seems more like a favositid coral.  Still it may be hard to judge from a photo, in hand it may look more crinoidish.

 

Don

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Pippa
2 hours ago, RuMert said:

Great specimens, preservation and photos, pity can't add much information:unsure:

I appreciate your kind remarks RuMert, thank you! 

Yes, it's a pity. But, that's life... `¯\_()_/¯´ 

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Pippa
5 hours ago, FossilDAWG said:

Calyx # 1 is quite nice.  Not sure of the ID, but maybe @crinus can help.  I don't think calyx 2 is actually a calyx, at least I do not see organization into basals, radials etc.  Seems more like a favositid coral.  Still it may be hard to judge from a photo, in hand it may look more crinoidish.

 

Don

Don, thanks for weighing in, I appreciate it.

 

I too thought at first I'd found another favosite coral. But after taking a closer look, I've become convinced that it isn't. 

If this was a favosite, there would be a flattish area with corallites topping off steep sides with visible vertical growth, stacked tabulae on top of tabulae. Here there is none. 

Favosites I've found have pretty uniformly sized hexagonal corallites. This is definitely not the case here. The plates vary from freeform to pentagons to stretched hexagons to ovals, circles and rectangles. This thing is much messier than any favosite I've ever seen. 

To the missing basals: I think some of those plates have been knocked off and are missing, as has a large part of one side of the calyx, which is why the specimen is oblong vs. round. 

Also, I think the  center plate is the connection to the stem, even the lumen is present in its center. It sure looks like a crinoid stem segment itself. What looks like crinoid crenulae around the edges isn't something I see in favosites either.

So for now, I think this is a calyx. 

P1010614.thumb.jpeg.e21a3a4e4a9c1efc93ee27ec5e96d57d.jpeg  IMG_6088.thumb.jpg.df21a2f1d41d4156883133bc3bb02425.jpg

 

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Pippa
21 hours ago, FossilDAWG said:

Not sure of the ID, but maybe @crinus can help. 

 

Thank you fossildawg for calling @crinus. I looked up his profile, alas, it appears that he last visited the forum in 2017.... 

Maybe @crinoid1 could help? I believe that Silurian fossils are common in Lithuania. 

Hoping...

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Jackson g

The calyx at #9 looks like a Eucalyptocrinus sp. The second one is hard to tell, but I'd guess either coral too or maybe just some crinoid mash.

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Pippa
On 5/24/2020 at 12:43 PM, Jackson g said:

The calyx at #9 looks like a Eucalyptocrinus sp......

Thanks a bunch! It's so helpful to have a name to research.  Herb has a Eucalyptocrinus crassus in his echinoderms album. Slightly different from my find, but it sure looks to be at least closely related. Now I'm finding photos and some info on various Eucalyptocrinus species.

 

On 5/24/2020 at 12:43 PM, Jackson g said:

.....  The second one is hard to tell, but I'd guess either coral too or maybe just some crinoid mash.

I'll try to take some more pictures from the best preserved side that hopefully will show that this is not a coral. If it is, I've never found any coral looking even remotely like this one. Plus, none of the sides has any evidence of vertical growth. I'm convinced this is a part of a crinoid calyx. 

Either way, it seems that unless a paleozoic crinoid expert rejects the crinoid calyx label, or recognizes it and shares his/her knowledge, I probably will never know...

Same for the stem segments with their (what seems to me at least) telltale shaped lumens, yet nobody seems to know... 

Oh well, I might bump up this thread in the future in the hopes that a crinoid expert will see it and chime in...

 

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Pippa

 @TqB, might you be able to help? 

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TqB
3 hours ago, Pippa said:

 @TqB, might you be able to help? 

Not much, but I agree that you're seeing polygons all the way round rather than any longitudinal favositid sections. So I think you're probably right with crinoid, no idea what sort though.

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ClearLake

Is it safe to assume that you have looked in Moore and Jeffords (1968) CLASSIFICATION AND NOMENCLATURE OF FOSSIL CRINOIDS BASED ON STUDIES OF DISSOCIATED PARTS OF THEIR COLUMNS and still not found the ID's?  I know the volume covers Silurian as well as other ages and is readily available online.  I know it is a bit dated, but it is still a great resource and I am not aware of anything newer that is as encompassing.  For the isolated columnals, I would start there if you have not already.

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aek

It is likely Eucalyptocrinites.

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Pippa
5 hours ago, TqB said:

Not much, but I agree that you're seeing polygons all the way round rather than any longitudinal favositid sections. So I think you're probably right with crinoid, no idea what sort though.

Aha! Glad to see you agree with me regarding favosites. I almost started to doubt myself... 

You restored my confidence in believing my own eyes. Thank you! 

 

2 hours ago, ClearLake said:

Is it safe to assume that you have looked in Moore and Jeffords (1968) CLASSIFICATION AND NOMENCLATURE OF FOSSIL CRINOIDS BASED ON STUDIES OF DISSOCIATED PARTS OF THEIR COLUMNS and still not found the ID's?  I know the volume covers Silurian as well as other ages and is readily available online.  I know it is a bit dated, but it is still a great resource and I am not aware of anything newer that is as encompassing.  For the isolated columnals, I would start there if you have not already.

Jackpot!  

"Moor and Jeffords' sounds just what I was looking for, didn't know it existed and hadn't found during all those google searches.

I've only just had time to quickly skim through the downloaded Pdf and it looks indeed like the perfect resource for me. 

ClearLake, thank you so much! I really appreciate you guiding me to the right place.  

 

 

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ClearLake

Glad to help.  I think that reference is a great place to start.  Once you have a name, you can always see if it has been updated or changed since that publication, but most of the time it is probably still valid.

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Pippa
4 hours ago, aek said:

It is likely Eucalyptocrinites.

aek, do you mean the 2nd calyx is a Eucalyptocrinites as well?

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Pippa
1 hour ago, ClearLake said:

Glad to help.  I think that reference is a great place to start.  Once you have a name, you can always see if it has been updated or changed since that publication, but most of the time it is probably still valid.

Exactly! A name is everything when googling. Anything connected with it will pop up, while a generic "silurian crinoid" search brings up crinoid earrings for sale on online...:(

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ClearLake
14 minutes ago, Pippa said:

brings up crinoid earrings for sale on online

What!?  Lets see, Mothers Day and my wife's birthday are already past, hmmm, I'll just have to file this tidbit away for future reference.  :unsure:

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