Ludwigia Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 I visited my favorite shark tooth site in the Miocene Burdigalian again today and made a few nice finds along with something that has me scratching my head. I'm pretty sure it's a partial mammal tooth, but have no idea what it might be. It seems to be from quite a small ruminant anyway, judging by the chewing surface, measuring in at 7mm. wide x 6mm. high. I checked out @Harry Pristis albums, but couldn't find a match. I've posted views from first the chewing surface, then 2 sideviews, the root and the last one is the side which appears to be broken. Any ideas anyone? 1 Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFOOLEY Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 Cool tooth...I saw a paper describing cheek teeth from a Miocene beaver. I didn't check the scale of those teeth but a couple looked similar. 2 "I am glad I shall never be young without wild country to be young in. Of what avail are forty freedoms without a blank spot on the map?" ~Aldo Leopold (1887-1948) New Mexico Museum of Natural History Bulletins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 I have very few examples of rodent teeth from Western Europe in my collection -- none, in fact. For what it's worth, your tooth does bear a resemblance to Pseudotheridomys (Family EOMYIDAE) from the Early Miocene of the USA. I would start my research with that family. Let us know. Good luck! 3 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 I think rodent is a good place to start. Harry even fine tuned it more. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterpillar Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232664107_The_Castorid_Steneofiber_from_NW_Germany_and_Its_Implications_for_the_Taxonomy_of_Miocene_Beavers/figures?lo=1 3 http://www.paleotheque.fr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwigia Posted June 2, 2020 Author Share Posted June 2, 2020 8 hours ago, PFOOLEY said: Cool tooth...I saw a paper describing cheek teeth from a Miocene beaver. I didn't check the scale of those teeth but a couple looked similar. 7 hours ago, Harry Pristis said: I have very few examples of rodent teeth from Western Europe in my collection -- none, if fact. For what it's worth, your tooth does bear a resemblance to Pseudotheridomys (Family EOMYIDAE) from the Early Miocene of the USA. I would start my research with that family. Let us know. Good luck! 3 hours ago, jpc said: I think rodent is a good place to start. Harry even fine tuned it more. 6 minutes ago, caterpillar said: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232664107_The_Castorid_Steneofiber_from_NW_Germany_and_Its_Implications_for_the_Taxonomy_of_Miocene_Beavers/figures?lo=1 Thanks very much everyone. Now I can start narrowing things down hopefully. Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwigia Posted June 2, 2020 Author Share Posted June 2, 2020 I'm starting to develop strabismus from studying hundreds of rodent teeth and since I can't find an exact match as yet, I've decided to stick with Rodentia indet. That's good enough for my purposes. Thanks again to everyone who helped out. 2 Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 strabismus? Yes rodent teeth can be a challenge 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossillarry Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 I would say that the tooth is from the posterior half of a small cervid lower p2 or p3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwigia Posted June 11, 2020 Author Share Posted June 11, 2020 10 hours ago, fossillarry said: I would say that the tooth is from the posterior half of a small cervid lower p2 or p3 Thanks for complicating things again Can you please show me some examples? Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 On 6/10/2020 at 3:07 PM, fossillarry said: I would say that the tooth is from the posterior half of a small cervid lower p2 or p3 Hi Larry, If the tooth is from the Burdigalian (Early-Middle Miocene). Isn't it too old to be a cervid? Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwigia Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 On 11.6.2020 at 12:07 AM, fossillarry said: I would say that the tooth is from the posterior half of a small cervid lower p2 or p3 @Harry Pristis Would you agree with this assessment? I've given up on waiting for a response from fossillarry. Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 8 hours ago, Ludwigia said: @Harry Pristis Would you agree with this assessment? I've given up on waiting for a response from fossillarry. For whatever my opinion is worth, I still like "rodent," maybe beaver. 2 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwigia Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 5 hours ago, Harry Pristis said: For whatever my opinion is worth, I still like "rodent," maybe beaver. Your opinion is worth a lot to me. Thanks. Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 On 7/8/2020 at 12:34 AM, Ludwigia said: @Harry Pristis Would you agree with this assessment? I've given up on waiting for a response from fossillarry. Hi Roger, Your specimen is a challenge because it might be half of a tooth and Harry, Larry, and JP are more used to seeing Early Miocene mammal teeth from North America - not Europe. There also doesn't seem to be the same assortment of fossil ID guides for Miocene vertebrates of Europe like there are for those of North America. There was some interchange of mammals during that time (cats, palaeomerycids, and probiscideans entered North America and the horse, Anchitherium, entered Europe, for example) but your specimen likely belongs to something native to Europe. Larry checks the FF maybe twice per month. I'll email him later and let him know you're still trying to nail down an ID on this tooth. While thinking about this now, it's possible Larry has a relevant paper on it. Back around 2000 when he was looking for specimens of early ruminants of Europe, I helped him find some articles on them and other groups. One of the authors was Denis Geraads. I checked a book I have on Cenozoic mammals of Europe, "Mammoths, Sabertooths, and Hominids" (Agusti and Anton, 2002, Columbia University Press). It's an overview of mammal evolution there (not an ID guide). It says that cervids did appear in Europe by the Early Miocene. I met Larry and Harry about the same time but in different states around 1989. For a few years Larry lived about 15 minutes from me. I haven't talked to JP face-to-face but I've seen him on TV. Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwigia Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 @siteseer Thanks for the information, Jess, and that you'll try to get Larry back on track for me. I'm sure it's half a tooth and it's also possible that it's a small cervid like Lagomeryx, since they are present within this time span in Middle Europe. Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 Hi Roger, Here are two cropped photos to show the posterior part of premolars of two different artiodactyls. The posterior is the right end of the tooth in these photos. In your first photo your tooth's posterior end is on the left side. The first photo shows a Gazella sp specimen (an antelope) from the Late Miocene of China. The second specimen shows a Dromomeryx specimen but that photo didn't come with information. It's almost certainly a Miocene specimen from North America. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwigia Posted August 2, 2020 Author Share Posted August 2, 2020 8 hours ago, siteseer said: Hi Roger, Here are two cropped photos to show the posterior part of premolars of two different artiodactyls. The posterior is the right end of the tooth in these photos. In your first photo your tooth's posterior end is on the left side. The first photo shows a Gazella sp specimen (an antelope) from the Late Miocene of China. The second specimen shows a Dromomeryx specimen but that photo didn't come with information. It's almost certainly a Miocene specimen from North America. Thanks. I think that confirms the suspicion. Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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