Could these be Calippus teeth?

[fossilus]

Through the years I've found these very small horse teeth in SE Texas.  In the photo the 2 center teeth are each 16 mm wide as measured across the width of the crown, the rightmost tooth 19 mm.  I know these pre-equus teeth can be difficult to ID.  Anyone out there can help?

@Harry Pristis

@Shellseeker

@garyc

[fossilus]

Additional photos

[Shellseeker]

2 hours ago, fossilus said:

Through the years I've found these very small horse teeth in SE Texas.  In the photo the 2 center teeth are each 16 mm wide as measured across the width of the crown, the rightmost tooth 19 mm.  I know these pre-equus teeth can be difficult to ID.  Anyone out there can help?

 

Upper jaw horse teeth are much easier to identify.  Yours are all lower jaw teeth.  I really like the jaw section.  It is likely Equus or a very close relative based on size.

Here is a Callipus upper, one of 3 I have found in 10 years.  They are not very common in my hunting areas.  This pattern is very distinctive and unique to Callipus uppers.

 

Callipus lowers look much like every other pre_equus horse lower tooth. I am looking at Hulbert's Fossil Vertebrates of Florida pg 294.  The photos look a LOT like yours, only Hulbert flips them vertically.

It is likely that your 1st 2 teeth are from the same species and the 3rd one is not , just based on size... 16, 16, and 19 mm.

 

These are very difficult to differentiate when I consider the Small Horses of Florida... Lots of scientists have written lots of papers on the small horses of Florida: Hipparion, Cormohipparion,  Nannippus. Callipus, Neohipparion, Parahippus, Pliohippus, to name just a FEW....

and Texas has different small horses than Florida, but some overlap.

I know something about the options in Florida, little about options in SE Texas...

 

I have been finding/collecting some lower teeth. If you are at 16 mm, it could be Nannippus. IF Nannippus exists in SE Texas!!! Great Photo from Harry below... compare to yours . 

 

I made an error on the Next photo... they are m3s from Nannippus peninsulatus on the left and Nannippus aztecus on the right....but you get the idea... size is the only determinant we have.

 

So, measure them,  accurate accurate crown lenght and width are very important...

 

I have been struggling to identify some recent finds also... I love these small teeth:

I have no clue on this last one.  It measures 18.6 x 8.4 mm, and is far more complicated than the lower teeth at this size than I have ever seen.  Once we are past this covid impact, I will send photos to Dr. Hulbert for identification...

 

Fossilus, I find this exhilarating !!! We find fossils that are very difficult to accurately identify.

[fossilus]

Thanks shellseeker! You've given me alot to think about and compare!  I've been doing this for over 25 years and only have found a few of these really small teeth.

[Shellseeker]

58 minutes ago, fossilus said:

Thanks shellseeker! You've given me alot to think about and compare!  I've been doing this for over 25 years and only have found a few of these really small teeth.

 

I do a google search of "Gulf Texas Nannippus",  then go to images. When I double click on the right image, I get the chance to download a PDF that tellsme all about where to find Nannippus teeth in Texas!!!!   I would love to know that your 16mm teeth are Nannippus peninsulatus....

 

[garyc]

Sorry, I can’t help with Id. I have an upper that Hulbert tentatively identified as nannipus. I have a few lowers, but don’t know what they are and they are not all complete.

[Shellseeker]

@fossilus

As soon as we suppose Nannippus, it gets my addictions going:

Here is your horse tooth #1 next to #2.. both 16mm crown length. This is an m1 or m2, and there is an argument that these teeth come from the same species. The focus/distance on the photo makes the left seem shorter than right

Here is your hore tooth #2 versus your #3, length 16mm versus 19mm. Once again,outside of the lengths, these are very close, likely the same species

 

Here is your #2 versus an identified Nannippus Aztecus 21.5 x11.9 x39.1 mm on Worthpoint. But now , there are differences besides size. In the red circles... complex fossettes in aztecus, not on yours..

 

I think that you have Nannippus lowers that are not aztecus. That is my insight for the day.

 

 

 

[Harry Pristis]

I have more Calippus uppers than lowers.

 

 

[Shellseeker]

 

 

 

@fossilus

 

7 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

I have more Calippus uppers than lowers.

 

So Fossilus,  I sometimes have flights of fancy. Harry is my rock.  What was your question?  Could these be Calippus?

You will note that up above I indicated that differentiating small horse lower teeth is difficult, mybe impossible.

Here is a photo from page 295 of Fossil Vertebrates of Florida,  Richard Hulbert (Invaluable to any serious Florida Fossil hunter)

 

If we do a little work on the m2 tooth in F, compared to your tooth #2, could your tooth #2 be a Callipus left mandible m2 ? Yours to judge. Hulbert's pictured m2 is a tad over 16 mm.

 

[fossilus]

40 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

 

 

 

@fossilus

 

 

So Fossilus,  I sometimes have flights of fancy. Harry is my rock.  What was your question?  Could these be Calippus?

You will note that up above I indicated that differentiating small horse lower teeth is difficult, mybe impossible.

Here is a photo from page 295 of Fossil Vertebrates of Florida,  Richard Hulbert (Invaluable to any serious Florida Fossil hunter)

 

If we do a little work on the m2 tooth in F, compared to your tooth #2, could your tooth #2 be a Callipus left mandible m2 ? Yours to judge. Hulbert's pictured m2 is a tad over 16 mm.

 

Thanks again! One of the reasons I had originally thought calippus was the similarity to some of the published drawings. Also I think that somewhere I had read that callipus is more common in texas than elsewhere. 

One thing I've come to find is that there can be a large variation in teeth even in a single jaw in fossil horses. 

You've helped immensely!

 

I should have looked at my copy of Hulbert, I have generally just done online searches and I missed these good line drawings.

[Harry Pristis]

Nannippus?  I have a few:

 

 

[Shellseeker]

12 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

Nannippus?  I have a few:

Thanks for the post,  gorgeous teeth... I can not recall seeing this last previously.  It is stunning... I am confused by the size for the N. aztecus.  I have a number acquired from the mines (mostly Phosphoria). Can the species have this much variation in crown length and for that matter crown height? Your last example is truly unique.

 

I am also curious about this one I showed above. Do you have any examples of lower teeth with similar complexity?

 

Thanks for any insights..   Jack

[Harry Pristis]

If I've learned anything from Hulbert, it's that Equus teeth are highly variable in conformation.  He does not, in my experience, make the distinction of other workers between the smaller E. simplicidens and the larger, later horses.  Maybe your small mystery tooth is simplicidens.

 

I have one of those small teeth at hand, so I photographed it and labeled it "simplicidens" -- a first for me.  Who's to argue that it is NOT the early Western form of Equus!!

[Shellseeker]

On 6/15/2020 at 11:41 AM, Harry Pristis said:

If I've learned anything from Hulbert, it's that Equus teeth are highly variable in conformation.  He does not, in my experience, make the distinction of other workers between the smaller E. simplicidens and the larger, later horses.  Maybe your small mystery tooth is simplicidens.

 

I have one of those small teeth at hand, so I photographed it and labeled it "simplicidens" -- a first for me.  Who's to argue that it is NOT the early Western form of Equus!!

 

....

 

Harry,  1st let me apologize for responding a month late. Somehow I missed your response.  I AM getting older, but no excuse.....

 

Next,  thank you for the epiphany !!!! I have been forcing every fossil tooth into "no protocone = equus or callipus".

 

I found this one yesterday:

and this one last month,

 

and now I have some learning to do.... searching the net and reading some papers..  E. simplicidens Thanks for the insight. Do you have photos of teeth you believe to be uppers?

 

Jack

[Harry Pristis]

No, Jack, I don't have an image of an upper E. simplicidens tooth.  I'm pretty sure I can find an example, maybe tomorrow.