Are These "crocodilia Molars"

[ebrocklds]

Brock,

Nice teeth!

Just curious if you found any other croc remains in those deposits. Mammals? I've driven that road a couple of times to Vernal. My wife and I stopped at one spot and I was running my fingers through the sand and came up with a dozen or so croc vertebrae. Unfortunately it was tick season and the little buggers were all over us. We took the road across to Craig and up into Wyoming. Along that stretch from Baggs, Wyoming up north to the Interstate we stopped at a few places randomly and found a couple of mammal jaw sections. There must be a load of good 'stuff' along those back stretches.

geo,

i have spent alot of time in that area prospecting and excavating many things on a piece of land that the company i worked for leased from the owners. some of the best stuff we found were a complete articulated alligator, which is very rare. the skull is about 10 inches long, several crocodile skulls including one that is nearly 3 feet long, many many turtles, and i personally found a nice mammal skull(an early oreodont). we also found a few uintathere teeth and random bones but never anything more than that. i really love diggin that stuff.

Brock

[non-remanié]

can anyone share any diagnostic differences between these late cretaceous crocodylian button teeth and globidens? has anyone seen button teeth ~1" width? most that i can turn up on searches appear to be significantly smaller than that although i'd have to guess that deinosuchus' button teeth might get fairly large. any new information at all that anyone has to share on the subject?

Yes, they are Croc teeth - the most common North American Late Cretaceous Croc that does indeed have flattened "button" type teeth is Thoracosaurus neocesariensis. I have collected them from Mississippi and North Carolina. Also, other Cretaceous forms include, Deinosuchus rugosus and Bottosaurus sp. both known from these same type of teeth.

I do have a many of both Thoracosaurus neocesariensis and Globidens alabamaensis from Mississippi, and though some tooth diagnostics are similiar between the two, there are also obvious differences.

Edited February 21, 2011 by toothpuller

[tracer]

the surface texture of globidens teeth is pretty distinctive

[non-remanié]

yeah thats what it seems like, but brock posted one button tooth that kinda has a similar texture. well, maybe... and some bottosaurus button teeth online also look to have some good texture as well. i guess what i'd love is just to see some better pictures of button teeth. anyone got any?

the surface texture of globidens teeth is pretty distinctive

[Paleoc]

Deinosuchus

[non-remanié]

thanks a bunch Paleoc, how wide is that deinosuchus by the way? although the top is a bit worn and cant tell if it ever had a n i p p l e like globidens, the texture does appear to have some of the same features as globidens teeth. but probably its easier to distinguish the difference if i had a one of those moroccan globidens teetth in hand.

Edited February 22, 2011 by toothpuller

[jpc]

One thing to keep in mind is that Globidens is strictly late Cretaceous marine. Crocs with button teeth are usually found in freshwater/terrestrial deposits.

[non-remanié]

Oh, I do realize that jpc, but also it seems to me that at least on the atlantic coastal plain these button teeth tend to show up in mixed lags with a good mix of terrestrial/freshwater/marine forms making things a little more difficult. In NJ, we commonly find thoracosaurus teeth in a near-shore or fully marine deposit, but bottosaurus and deinosuchus are pretty rare except in a few small sites that have a much more terrestrial/estaurine influence.

One thing to keep in mind is that Globidens is strictly late Cretaceous marine. Crocs with button teeth are usually found in freshwater/terrestrial deposits.

[Harry Pristis]

One thing to keep in mind is that Globidens is strictly late Cretaceous marine. Crocs with button teeth are usually found in freshwater/terrestrial deposits.

Thank you, 'jpc' - I take this as a tacit acknowledgement of the difficulty in distinguishing globidens teeth from some croc teeth. (This is the reason for the thread.)

I wish 'hybodus' had followed through with side-by-side images of the subject teeth. Anyone here now who can make a comparison image?

[non-remanié]

Yep Harry I think thats pretty clear! I would too have loved to see a good comparison from hybodus especially with frankstown specimens which have a very similar taphonomic signature as what I am dealing with.

Thank you, 'jpc' - I take this as a tacit acknowledgement of the difficulty in distinguishing globidens teeth from some croc teeth. (This is the reason for the thread.)

I wish 'hybodus' had followed through with side-by-side images of the subject teeth. Anyone here now who can make a comparison image?

[Paleoc]

thanks a bunch Paleoc, how wide is that deinosuchus by the way? although the top is a bit worn and cant tell if it ever had a n i p p l e like globidens, the texture does appear to have some of the same features as globidens teeth. but probably its easier to distinguish the difference if i had a one of those moroccan globidens teetth in hand.

About 1/2 inch wide. Tips are not usually like Globidens (sometimes they have like a ridge) and they tend not to be bulb shaped.

As far as terrestrial, this was found mixed in with Dinosaur material and shark teeth. Environment was probably like Northern Australia with the nearby ocean periodically advancing and retreating.

Also unlike most crocodilians, the back half of Deinosuchus jaws were all "button" type crushing teeth with pointed, biting teeth confined to the front half of the jaw. In addition to Dinosaurs, Deinosuchus fed heavily on turtles. Turtles shells from the location were very dense and thick, thus the heavy wear on the Deinosuchus teeth.

Unfortunately, none of my 3 Globidens teeth are prime specimens. 2 are anteriors which are narrow side to side and 1 is badly damaged and neither have good enamel. The bulb tooth is fairly small but clearly Globidens but again the enamel isn't in great shape.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Paleoc

[non-remanié]

I am fairly sure what I have is a globidens, and I will post pics when I can take some in sunlight because its hard to get the details to stand out otherwise. The problem is that there have only been a scant few globidens recovered from NJ and only from older formations. The formation my possible specimen is derived from is well studied and globidens is not reported in the literature.

If your deinosuchus is from where I am guessing it is from , then I believe the sediments there are regarded as a nearshore stream channel sand which obviously lends itself to significant terrestrial influx in the assemblage. One site in NJ that was known to produce deinosuchus shares many similarities; a likely storm deposit within an estuarine/lagoonal channel sequence.

.steve

About 1/2 inch wide. Tips are not usually like Globidens (sometimes they have like a ridge) and they tend not to be bulb shaped.

As far as terrestrial, this was found mixed in with Dinosaur material and shark teeth. Environment was probably like Northern Australia with the nearby ocean periodically advancing and retreating.

Also unlike most crocodilians, the back half of Deinosuchus jaws were all "button" type crushing teeth with pointed, biting teeth confined to the front half of the jaw. In addition to Dinosaurs, Deinosuchus fed heavily on turtles. Turtles shells from the location were very dense and thick, thus the heavy wear on the Deinosuchus teeth.

Unfortunately, none of my 3 Globidens teeth are prime specimens. 2 are anteriors which are narrow side to side and 1 is badly damaged and neither have good enamel. The bulb tooth is fairly small but clearly Globidens but again the enamel isn't in great shape.

[non-remanié]

Just remembered I never added a picture of my globidens tooth to this thread, so here it is. Its only about 70% complete, but it is likely only the 2nd globidens reported from NJ, although a few more were found in Delaware in the same formations as NJ at the C&D canal years ago.

[Harry Pristis]

Just remembered I never added a picture of my globidens tooth to this thread, so here it is. Its only about 70% complete, but it is likely only the 2nd globidens reported from NJ, although a few more were found in Delaware in the same formations as NJ at the C&D canal years ago.

What a nice find! Thanks, Steve, for posting the image.

[siteseer]

Harry, Non-remanie, and everybody,

This is an interesting thread for me because I bought a small tooth (crown height 7mm) in Tucson earlier this year. It is from the Lower Demopolis Formation, Prentiss County, Mississippi (possibly the "Twenty Mile Creek" site). It's labelled Globidens alabamensis but I wondered if it was a croc tooth. As it happened, I also bought a Globidens tooth from Morocco (crown height 27mm). It is less dome-shaped than most of the ones I've seen - very similar to one of Harry's (rather tall relative to its width and it has a prominent "######" or peak as Harry put it).

As I understood the distinction: croc teeth tend to have raised ridges (or striations) running the length of the tooth, roughly parallel, sometimes forking part of the way; my unworn Globidens from Morocco has an odd rugose texture you can feel with your fingertips. When you look close, the enamel looks like it is made up of numerous tiny bumps, points, and embossed wrinkles. The small MS tooth has very similar texture - not as clear because of wear. Your NJ tooth has some wear but you can see the similar texture which is unlike any croc I've seen.

Of course, just when I think I see the difference, I also examined a small tooth (7mm) from the Hell Creek Formation of Ziebach County, South Dakota. The Hell Creek is terrestrial, a river deposit known for dinosaurs, crocs, and freshwater fishes along with some sharks and rays that tolerated fresh and saltwater. This SD tooth has the same kind of bumpy texture as the Moroccan Globidens which means either:

the collector got the formation wrong (possible but I have seen hadrosaur teeth from the site as well)

or there are croc teeth with very similar crown texture

or young/small Globidens individuals occasionally spent time upriver like the sharks.

Jess

Just remembered I never added a picture of my globidens tooth to this thread, so here it is. Its only about 70% complete, but it is likely only the 2nd globidens reported from NJ, although a few more were found in Delaware in the same formations as NJ at the C&D canal years ago.

Edited May 25, 2011 by siteseer

[Harry Pristis]

Harry, Non-remanie, and everybody,

This is an interesting thread for me because I bought a small tooth (crown height 7mm) in Tucson earlier this year. It is from the Lower Demopolis Formation, Prentiss County, Mississippi (possibly the "Twenty Mile Creek" site). It's labelled Globidens alabamensis but I wondered if it was a croc tooth. As it happened, I also bought a Globidens tooth from Morocco (crown height 27mm). It is less dome-shaped than most of the ones I've seen - very similar to one of Harry's (rather tall relative to its width and it has a prominent "######" or peak as Harry put it).

As I understood the distinction: croc teeth tend to have raised ridges (or striations) running the length of the tooth, roughly parallel, sometimes forking part of the way; my unworn Globidens from Morocco has an odd rugose texture you can feel with your fingertips. When you look close, the enamel looks like it is made up of numerous tiny bumps, points, and embossed wrinkles. The small MS tooth has very similar texture - not as clear because of wear. Your NJ tooth has some wear but you can see the similar texture which is unlike any croc I've seen.

Of course, just when I think I see the difference, I also examined a small tooth (7mm) from the Hell Creek Formation of Ziebach County, South Dakota. The Hell Creek is terrestrial, a river deposit known for dinosaurs, crocs, and freshwater fishes along with some sharks and rays that tolerated fresh and saltwater. This SD tooth has the same kind of bumpy texture as the Moroccan Globidens which means either:

the collector got the formation wrong (possible but I have seen hadrosaur teeth from the site as well)

or there are croc teeth with very similar crown texture

or young/small Globidens individuals occasionally spent time upriver like the sharks.

Jess

Well, Jess, are you going to tease us as did 'hybodus', or are you going to post some images comparing these teeth? Please, please, please?

[Paleoc]

Side note: I collected some more Deinosuchus through not the posterior button teeth this time. This is the best condition one I found. It measures 30mm long. The texture is unlike Globidens and more crocodilian with prominent vertical striations. However, the texture is coarser and more rugose than any of the many other crocodilian species teeth I have collected. I suspect this is too strengthen the teeth when biting into the very thick turtle shells (or dinosaur bones) that it apparently fed on. It also has 2 distinct cutting edges.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Paleoc

[siteseer]

Harry, I don't have a camera so I try to be as detailed as possible in my descriptions when fine points are being discussed. I did get some photos of other specimens last weekend but have had to wait for them to get transferred to my computer. I can try to get some photos of the smaller teeth and their texture tomorrow.

Jess

Well, Jess, are you going to tease us as did 'hybodus', or are you going to post some images comparing these teeth? Please, please, please?

[siteseer]

Yes, thanks for the photos of the Deinosuchus teeth. Are they from the Black Creek Formation? I understand those to be rare or is it that a decent one is rare? Is it a tooth (any condition) you can expect to find every trip or something found once every few trips?

Yes, the texture probably has something to do with the prey although it might not have to do with strengthening the enamel as much as serving as a better gripping surface when biting into smooth, curved shells (turtles for Deinosuchus; large mollusks for Globidens). It's interesting that Globidens evolved when the large mollusk-eating niche was open after the extinction of Ptychodus.

Side note: I collected some more Deinosuchus through not the posterior button teeth this time. This is the best condition one I found. It measures 30mm long. The texture is unlike Globidens and more crocodilian with prominent vertical striations. However, the texture is coarser and more rugose than any of the many other crocodilian species teeth I have collected. I suspect this is too strengthen the teeth when biting into the very thick turtle shells (or dinosaur bones) that it apparently fed on. It also has 2 distinct cutting edges.

[siteseer]

Non-remanie,

Here's a diagnosis of Bottosaurus teeth from Erickson (1998):

Bottosaurus, "large conical teeth...short for their breadth; low apex with circular cross-section of anterior teeth; posterior teeth with laterally compressed cross-section; enamel surfaces 'wrinkled' with vertical ribbing and modest carina developed on anterior and posterior sides."

A "modest carina" (=keel of some authors) is a reference to apparent cutting edges.

Jess

Erickson, B.R. 1998.

Crocodilians of the Black Mingo Group (Paleocene) of the South Carolina Coastal Plain. In Sanders, A.E. (ed.) Paleobiology of the Williamsburg Formation (Black Mingo Group; Paleocene) of South Carolina, U.S.A.

yeah thats what it seems like, but brock posted one button tooth that kinda has a similar texture. well, maybe... and some bottosaurus button teeth online also look to have some good texture as well. i guess what i'd love is just to see some better pictures of button teeth. anyone got any?

[Paleoc]

Yes, thanks for the photos of the Deinosuchus teeth. Are they from the Black Creek Formation? I understand those to be rare or is it that a decent one is rare? Is it a tooth (any condition) you can expect to find every trip or something found once every few trips?

Yes, the texture probably has something to do with the prey although it might not have to do with strengthening the enamel as much as serving as a better gripping surface when biting into smooth, curved shells (turtles for Deinosuchus; large mollusks for Globidens). It's interesting that Globidens evolved when the large mollusk-eating niche was open after the extinction of Ptychodus.

Decent ones are rare. I collected 4 or so and almost everyone got at least one. A few were twice as long as mine. Yes, Black Creek formation.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Paleoc

[siteseer]

Okay, Harry, here are some photos of a tooth labelled as "Late Cretaceous, Hell Creek Formation, Ziebach County, South Dakota." The crown height is 7mm.

Well, Jess, are you going to tease us as did 'hybodus', or are you going to post some images comparing these teeth? Please, please, please?

[siteseer]

Here are two more angles of the Ziebach County tooth (crown height, 7mm).

Okay, Harry, here are some photos of a tooth labelled as "Late Cretaceous, Hell Creek Formation, Ziebach County, South Dakota." The crown height is 7mm.

[siteseer]

Harry,

Here are two sides of a Globidens tooth (Late Cretaceous, Maastrichtian, Khouribga, Morocco). Crown height is 27mm.

Well, Jess, are you going to tease us as did 'hybodus', or are you going to post some images comparing these teeth? Please, please, please?

[siteseer]

Here are two sides of a tooth I bought in Tucson (crown height 7mm). The label says:

Globidens alabamensis

Late Cretaceous (Campanian)

Lower Demopolis Formation

Prentiss County, Mississippi

I saw a few other crowns available with more of the "mushroom" look.

Edited May 27, 2011 by siteseer