Branchiosaurus (Apateon pedestris) specimen

[Owl_Roker]

Hello Fossil Folks,

 

I am considering bidding on the below Branchiosaurus (Apateon pedestris) specimen.

 

Description says it is from the Permian Period (c. 290.1–283.5 Ma)—recovered in Germany.

 

What is your take on the (1) authenticity and (2) prep work? If you have seen similar specimens, how does this one compare in terms of overall quality?

 

 

 

Thanks,

Robert

 

[Fossildude19]

I believe this is real. However these are often coated with a clear paint/varnish to make the bodies look like soft tissue preservation.

Preparation seems slightly amateurish. But since most of these are very similar, I think it is a decent specimen.

[Owl_Roker]

11 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

I believe this is real. However these are often coated with a clear paint/varnish to make the bodies look like soft tissue preservation.

Preparation seems slightly amateurish. But since most of these are very similar, I think it is a decent specimen.

Thanks, Tim.

 

You're correct. The description does note that the fossil is coated with a "special protective layer". If it's to make the bodies appear like soft tissue preservation, when in fact that's not the case, seems a bit deceptive, no? Is that common?

 

Might rethink my position on this one…

[Fossildude19]

Well, I do think it is mostly protective, since many of them are coated. 

However, since it does overlap the actual fossil, I think it is a bit deceptive. 

The fact that they mention the coating is commendable, though. 

 

There are some that do show body outlines, but, for the most part, the majority I have seen are like this one. 

 

[Fossildude19]

Often, the fossils themselves are just skull and vertebral column. Possibly a few leg bones here and there. 

To make them more interesting, they will "flesh out" the fossils, for better sales. 

 

Some examples found online. 

 

      

And the second in negative mode:

 

 

I would stay away from ones with dark lines showing too much like a body: 

 

  

 

These look like parts were drawn on with a crayon or marker.   

 

 

 

[aeon.rocks]

Tim, any idea, if the permian layers where these are found are accessible legally or if it's possible to get hands on unpreped material? Specimens of amphibians and some fish seem pretty common from these permo-carboniferous EU layers, but to find one unpreped or good prepped is almost mission impossible. Majority of this permian material is amateurish prepped. Different animals, but how professional work looks (you can easily compare by looking for paramblypterus in commercial websites):

 

 

 

 

 

[link removed]

[FossilNerd]

1 hour ago, Fossildude19 said:

To make them more interesting, they will "flesh out" the fossils, for better sales

For the OPs benefit...

A similar coating practice is done on other types of fossils as well.

For example, bits and pieces of Green River fish are sometimes coated to make them look more recognizable as fish. The below Knightia from my collection is a good example. There is bone there, but it was painted over to give it a more fishy appearance. You can see brush marks on the tail and fin areas. I’m sure it offers some protective qualities, but it also helps the fish bits sale for more. 
 

Other painted/dyed/coated things I can think of are dino trackways, crinoids (especially Moroccan) and multiple species of fish, amphibians, and reptiles.

 

Just something to watch for when purchasing these types of fossils.  
 

 

[Fossildude19]

1 hour ago, aeon.rocks said:

Tim, any idea, if the permian layers where these are found are accessible legally or if it's possible to get hands on unpreped material?

I have no idea about this. Personally, the prices are usually too far out of my price range for these items, ... even poorly prepped. 

I think I have seen posts here by members who have found this material in the field, but would have to search the Forum for more information. 

[aeon.rocks]

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I have no idea about this. Personally, the prices are usually too far out of my price range for these items, ... even poorly prepped. 

I think I have seen posts here by members who have found this material in the field, but would have to search the Forum for more information. 

Thanks for the hint. In case of some common permian fish, like paramblypterus, I find some prices very cheap, but so poorly prepped (or preserved, I don't know).

 

Quote

For the OPs benefit...

A similar coating practice is done on other types of fossils as well.

For example, bits and pieces of Green River fish are sometimes coated to make them look more recognizable as fish. The below Knightia from my collection is a good example. There is bone there, but it was painted over to give it a more fishy appearance. You can see brush marks on the tail and fin areas. I’m sure it offers some protective qualities, but it also helps the fish bits sale for more. 
 

Other painted/dyed/coated things I can think of are dino trackways, crinoids (especially Moroccan) and multiple species of fish, amphibians, and reptiles.

 

 

 

We need to be carefull - coating and paint over are not the same thing...

 

In example, paraloid or similar protective/stabilization coatings can harden the fragile structures and are transparent (or in some cases the coated surface looks a bit semi-shiny or deeper colors/contrasts; all depends on the coating used). These transparent protective coatings for deepening the color contrast or stabilization are often used on all types of fossils, for stabilization of bones, more deep color on ammonites, etc. Often used also in pro-paleo, not just in commerce; for instance in vert-paleo bones are often stabilized in such a way. And it's a part of the prep-process. Stabilization coating as a long-term protection... Some fossils don't need it. But sometimes such transparent coatings and varnish, when used right, "improve the visual aesthetics" and help with the sale too: brings out more contrast, colors or details and are sometimes removable (the process can be reversed without harm to the fossil).

 

What you can see in Tim's post in picture "the second in negative mode" (and in original), is such a transparent coating over the "body" (and over matrix), it stabilizes the fossil surface and brings out more "contrast" (deepens the coated surface a bit), you can notice it easily where I marked with the arrow (not sure if there was any soft tissue preserved and the clear coating just deepened the color contrast, but often it's destroyed in prep and it's possible to make the bodies appear like soft tissue preservation in this way). When there is soft tissue preservation, I'm not surprised that they are coated (stabilized), just perhaps the choice of the coating could be different... 

 

 

 

The Green river fish specimen in example above was painted over with a paint however, not a protective coating. Not transparent. No idea how that helps with the sales, it looks terrible and it should be declared as restoration. 

[Owl_Roker]

@Fossildude19, @aeon.rocks, @FossilNerd,

 

Thanks for taking the time to comment. This information is tremendously helpful, especially for a newbie.

 

I’m still on the fence, but think I’m leaning towards giving the Branchiosaurus specimen a miss. I’m not confident in my abilities (for the moment, at least) in telling the difference between what’s actually fossil vs paint (“fleshed out”) vs protective coating. Hoping to improve this, however.

 

@Fossildude19, what programme did you use to produce the negative image? That was useful. I tried finding something online, but didn’t it didn’t turn out very well:

 

 

 

Like @FossilNerd, I too own a Green River fish plate. I don’t see any brush strokes, but then again I’m new to this... Wondering if this is also painted ("fleshed out")?

 

 

Apologies if these are dumb questions! 

 

[Fossildude19]

Not dumb at all.  

 

How else are you going to learn?

 

I don't see any paint on your Green River fish there. 

Nice Diplomystus and Knightia!  

 

I used Photoscape X on my PC. It was free, and I find it quite easy to use.  

 

I tried with the photo you provided, but it is a bit rubbish of a photo.   

 

[FossilNerd]

2 hours ago, aeon.rocks said:

 

The Green river fish specimen in example above was painted over with a paint however, not a protective coating. Not transparent. No idea how that helps with the sales, it looks terrible and it should be declared as restoration. 

It helps with a sale when you know nothing about fossils, as was my case when I purchased the specimen. I didn’t pay much at all for it, but a little paint, and lack of knowledge on the buyers (my) part, makes it go from a piece in the free pile to making a few bucks. It was not declared as altered in any way.
 

This example is one of two such examples that I wasted money on when I first started to collect.
 

Knowledge is power as the saying goes.  

 

2 hours ago, aeon.rocks said:

We need to be carefull - coating and paint over are not the same thing...

Agreed. A coating of paraloid or similar product to protect a fossil is very different from a paint or dye used to hide or “enhance” a specimen. 

[FossilNerd]

1 hour ago, Fossildude19 said:

I don't see any paint on your Green River fish there. 

Nice Diplomystus and Knightia!  

I agree! Nice examples. 

[bcfossilcollector]

@aeon.rocks  A number of these amphibian fossils come from the Niederkirchen Beds, I hope I spelled that correctly, around Pfalz Germany. From what I understand much of that area is closed to collecting and has been for awhile. @Owl_Roker I actually like the specimen you have posted. I agree with the others it’s not unusual to see enhancements as regards these types of specimens. Personally, I can’t tell if there are any enhancements to this particular specimen but I trust the observations of the the other posters on this thread. I do think it a rather nice specimen. 

[aeon.rocks]

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From what I understand much of that area is closed to collecting and has been for awhile.

 

Thanks for the info. Pfalz sounds about right, yes. 

 

Quote

Knowledge is power as the saying goes.

 

Exactlly, that's why it's important to research and check other specimens, if you're in the market. Maybe your specimen is not best preserved, but maybe still not too bad, if soaked in acetone. A good conversation piece as an example of faking even as it is. 

[FossilNerd]

31 minutes ago, aeon.rocks said:

Exactlly, that's why it's important to research and check other specimens, if you're in the market. Maybe your specimen is not best preserved, but maybe still not too bad, if soaked in acetone. A good conversation piece as an example of faking even as it is.

I totally agree! I keep the specimen to remind me not to buy something on a whim, and to teach others. 
 

I don’t buy often these days, but when I do, I research and ask questions. I know what I am buying before doing so. Sadly, it wasn’t the case when I first started out, so I try to inform others.  

[Owl_Roker]

9 hours ago, Fossildude19 said:

Nice Diplomystus and Knightia!  

 

7 hours ago, FossilNerd said:

I agree! Nice examples. 

 

Thanks, @Fossildude19 and @FossilNerd. I agree! I really think this plate looks nice. I'm glad my first piece was the iconic Diplomystus dentatus and Knightia eocaena.

 

 

**********

4 hours ago, bcfossilcollector said:

A number of these amphibian fossils come from the Niederkirchen Beds

 

@bcfossilcollector, this specimen is from Niederhausen (same as Niederkirchen?). It’s the Palatinate region in Germany...if that helps for identification?

 

 

 

 

[bcfossilcollector]

@Owl_Roker Both Niederhausen and Niederkirchen are municipalities in the Pfalz Rhineland/Rhineland Palatinate and the fossil beds where these Branchiosaurus fossils are found might extend through municipal boundaries?  Personally, I am fascinated by these early amphibian fossils and the often excellent preservation that many of the specimens collected from this region exhibit. I have a few Branchiosaurs (Apateon pedestris) in my collection and am always looking. By the way I’m extremely envious of your Green River plate! Beautiful, just stunning!

[Owl_Roker]

28 minutes ago, bcfossilcollector said:

Personally, I am fascinated by these early amphibian fossils

 

@bcfossilcollector, I am as well. Having a specimen in my collection that’s pre-Jurassic, let alone pre-Triassic, really excites me. I suppose what worries me is the quality. I’m so new to this….

 

As an FYI, this specimen is from the Artinskian Age (c. 290.1-283.5 Ma)...though I'm sure you already knew that!

 

 

28 minutes ago, bcfossilcollector said:

By the way I’m extremely envious of your Green River plate! Beautiful, just stunning!

@bcfossilcollector, I do love my Green River Plate very much.

 

Also, I'm obviously late to the game, but I'm half way through "The Lost World of Fossil Lake: Snapshots from Deep Time"...such a good read. I'll post a review from a newbie perspective once I finish.

 

Thanks,

Robert

 

[Owl_Roker]

6 hours ago, FossilNerd said:

I don’t buy often these days, but when I do, I research and ask questions. I know what I am buying before doing so.

@FossilNerd, Ireland doesn't have the specimens I'm interested in, unfortunately. Nor do I know anyone willing to take me on a fossil hunt! I know "purchasing" is more frowned upon in this forum than "self-collecting"...but I just don't have that luxury at the moment. I almost feel like a fraud here 

[Randyw]

27 minutes ago, Owl_Roker said:

I almost feel like a fraud here 

Don’t! There are several of us on here that becuase of health, location, or other reasons can’t hunt and have to purchase our treasures all are welcome here!

[Owl_Roker]

6 minutes ago, Randyw said:

Don’t! There are several of us on here that becuase of health, location, or other reasons can’t hunt and have to purchase our treasures all are welcome here!

 

Thanks so much @Randyw! Means a lot! Especially with all the collecting going on here!!! 

[Owl_Roker]

12 hours ago, Fossildude19 said:

I used Photoscape X on my PC. It was free, and I find it quite easy to use.  

Apologies, Tim. Meant to respond to this sooner. I just downloaded PhotoScape X—though will probably be a disaster. I’ll let you know how it goes.

[DPS Ammonite]

1 hour ago, Owl_Roker said:

@FossilNerd, Ireland doesn't have the specimens I'm interested in, unfortunately. Nor do I know anyone willing to take me on a fossil hunt! I know "purchasing" is more frowned upon in this forum than "self-collecting"...but I just don't have that luxury at the moment. I almost feel like a fraud here 

Join a local fossil/ rock club. You will meet lots of interesting people and will learn about the best collecting localities and local dealers. Seeing fossils in person beats seeing photos of them on the internet. 

[Owl_Roker]

26 minutes ago, DPS Ammonite said:

Join a local fossil/ rock club. You will meet lots of interesting people and will learn about the best collecting localities and local dealers. Seeing fossils in person beats seeing photos of them on the internet. 

 

Thanks @DPS Ammonite, as far as you're aware, do you recall anyone from Ireland on the forum? Would prefer an introduction via TFF, but if that's not the case, I'll find local clubs.

 

Thanks,

Robert