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RJB

What About Birds ?

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RJB

  I dont mean to sound so ignorant but ive been watching some dino type shows on TV and I realized a question.  On one of the shows a guy was pointing out the KT boundry.  Then he goes on to say that below this boundry dinosaurs can be found and that above this bondry no dinosaurs can be found.   On another show they were talking about how birds are decendants of the dinosaurs.  So, my question is,  How can birds have evovled from something that went extinct 65 million years ago?   I know there must be a simple answer,,,,, but what the heck is it?

 

RB

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Al Dente

Brief answer- birds evolved from dinosaurs in the Jurassic, long before the end Cretaceous event that killed the non-avian dinosaurs.

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ziggycardon

Well I think the most simple answer to that is because birds evolved before the KT extinction. 
It's actually false documentaries say that all dinosaurs went extinct after the KT extinction, all non-avian dinosaurs did. But the avian dinosaurs which we now call birds did survive. 

This bird for instance, which was discribed a few months ago, is the oldest known modern birds species, which lived a few 100 000 years before the KT-extinction. 

 

 

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Bobby Rico

Good question Ron , I thought the birds had evolve long time before the mass exhibition. I believe most of the  tree dwelling bird died out because of the forests been destroyed by lack of light and acid rain. The ground living birds like say chickens survived in the same ways as the early  rodents did and they evolved into modern day birds. 

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RuMert

If you are referring to thebrainscoop youtube channel with a recent video actually featuring a guy pointing to the K-Pg boundary in an outcrop, they did remark the birds survived the event:)

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siteseer
11 hours ago, Bobby Rico said:

Good question Ron , I thought the birds had evolve long time before the mass exhibition. I believe most of the  tree dwelling bird died out because of the forests been destroyed by lack of light and acid rain. The ground living birds like say chickens survived in the same ways as the early  rodents did and they evolved into modern day birds. 

 

Hi Bobby,

 

There were no rodents in the Cretaceous.  There were small mammals that would have looked like them but the earliest rodents didn't evolve until the late Paleocene.  I have seen Early Eocene rodent fossils and they appear to be rather uncommon relative to other mammal groups at the time.  They were still the new kids.

 

Jess

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Bobby Rico
On 29/06/2020 at 12:41 AM, siteseer said:

no rodents in the Cretaceous

Sorry mammals is what meant to say thanks Bobby

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RJB

  Thanks everyone.   I knew it had to be something simple and it figures that TV does not explain it fully enough for people with little brains like me.  

 

RB

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Bobby Rico
Just now, RJB said:

Thanks everyone.   I knew it had to be something simple and it figures that TV does not explain it fully enough

I think your question made for an interesting thread 

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RJB
1 minute ago, Bobby Rico said:

I think your question made for an interesting thread 

And it came with lots of other pertinent information too. 

 

RB

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RuMert

Yes, this is strange and corresponds more to the older theories of extinction (dinosaurs couldn't adapt and such)

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Ptychodus04
5 hours ago, RuMert said:

Yes, this is strange and corresponds more to the older theories of extinction (dinosaurs couldn't adapt and such)

Enantiornithines are functionally the same as modern birds. The only real difference is in a swapping of ball for socket in the shoulders and ankle (if I remember correctly). This would imply that adaptation had nothing to do with extinction.

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RuMert

Well, they at least had teeth, clawed wings and pretty different tail, so not so close to modern birds. But unlike big animals and marine fauna their extiction cannot be easily explained with impact events, lack of oxygen and plankton disappearance

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doushantuo

some of you may like

The Completeness of the Fossil Record of Mesozoic Birds:Implications for Early Avian Evolution
Neil Brocklehurst,*, Paul Upchurch,, Philip D. Mannion, Jingmai O’Connor

(about 4,5Mb)

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doushantuo

some of youmaylike

about 8MB

An unusual bird (Theropoda, Avialae) from the Early Cretaceous of Japan suggests complex
evolutionary history of basal birds
Takuya Ima, Yoichi Azuma, Soichiro Kawabe,  Masateru Shibata, Kazunori Miyata,
 

COMMUNICATIONS BIOLOGY | (2019) 2:399 | https://doi.org/10.1038/s42003-019-0639-4 | www.nature.com/commsbio

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jpc

My two cents on RJB's original question:

 

In 1997 Luis Chiappe's came out with a paper in which he did a cladistic study of birds and dinosaurs and claimed that bird are indeed actual dinosaurs.  This means that dinosaurs did NOT go extinct.  This was fairly well accepted by dinosaur paleontologists but before long they realized that they could no longer say that dinosaurs went extinct at the end of the Cretaceous.  Instead they had to start using the term "non-avian dinosaurs" when talking about what we classically know as dinosaurs.   23 years later it is still common to just say that dinosaurs went extinct at the end of the Cretaceous rather than using the much longer and more confusing term 'non-avian dinosaurs'.  I know, I do it all the time.  It is easier and much more understandable to say something like 'dinosaurs went extinct here.. except birds', which RuMert mentions the guy did say in the show.    

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Thecosmilia Trichitoma
On 6/28/2020 at 4:46 AM, RJB said:

  I dont mean to sound so ignorant but ive been watching some dino type shows on TV and I realized a question.  On one of the shows a guy was pointing out the KT boundry.  Then he goes on to say that below this boundry dinosaurs can be found and that above this bondry no dinosaurs can be found.   On another show they were talking about how birds are decendants of the dinosaurs.  So, my question is,  How can birds have evovled from something that went extinct 65 million years ago?   I know there must be a simple answer,,,,, but what the heck is it?

 

RB

For more information about dinosaurs, I recommend the book, "The Rise and Fall of the Dinosaurs" by Steve Brusatte. It's easy to understand, but contains many more details than most TV series. It also has a great list of sources at the end, which go into the topics in more detail. 

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jpc

quoting RuMert above:

"Most people accepted this fact intellectually but emotionally did not yet come to terms with birds being dinosaurs"

 

Bingo!!

 

I, as a bird watcher all my life, will rarely say, I wonder what kind of dinosaur that was that just flew by, even though I know it is one.  

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