Plant Fossil Location

[minnbuckeye]

Does anyone have access to where THE UPPERMOST LOWER EOCENE BLUE RIM FLORA FROM THE BRIDGER FORMATION OF SOUTHWESTERN WYOMING  might be. I have had much difficulty deciphering a location for the  plant fossils in this formation. I will be in SW Wyoming next week and would like to figure out if I should spend some time looking a leaf or two from this formation on my open day.

  

Mike

[piranha]

Allen, S.E. 2017

The Uppermost Lower Eocene Blue Rim Flora from the Bridger Formation of Southwestern Wyoming: Floristic Composition, Paleoclimate, and Paleoecology.

PhD Thesis, University of Florida, 618 pp.  PDF LINK

[DPS Ammonite]

Take the maps from above paper and find a map of the area to see if it is public and can be collected.
 

I just found a map of the Blue Rim public access area. It looks like most of it is state land. You need to see if the laws allow collecting there. Maybe a Wyoming local knows the laws. @jpc.

 

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/Public-Access/Public-Access-Areas/Green-River-Blue-Rim-Road

Edited July 10, 2020 by DPS Ammonite

[minnbuckeye]

Thanks so much. I don't know how you found that. I had searched 10 different articles or references to no avail!

 

 Mike

[piranha]

6 minutes ago, minnbuckeye said:

Thanks so much. I don't know how you found that. I had searched 10 different articles or references to no avail!

 

[jpc]

The rules in Wyoming say that fossil collecting on State land is not allowed.  On BLM land, it is OK to collect leaves for personal use... no selling.  A lot of that area (every other square mile) is private land and you would need the landowner's permission to collect.  You would need to bring a 7 1/2 minute topo map with you and know how to read it and know whose land you are on.  Or a GPS that does all that work for you.    

[DPS Ammonite]

1 hour ago, jpc said:

The rules in Wyoming say that fossil collecting on State land is not allowed.  On BLM land, it is OK to collect leaves for personal use... no selling.  

I found some rules for collecting fossils in Wyoming State land. It appears that you can casually collect invertebrate fossils subject to rules in Chapter 13.

 

Chapter 11 casually collecting fossils: 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S88PL24ejBZzpZ1qbexn-aWl9hBud_ek/view

 

Chapter 13:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/18wYE7MtKSkKnrBy66AJcvzVrhELp2T2J/view

 

In a related matter, it appears that you are allowed to cross the corners in Wyoming where public land and private land meet in a checkerboard pattern as long as you do not intend to “hunt” in the private land without permission.

Think of Four Corners, USA. You can cross from Arizona to Colorado even if you do not have permission to hunt and be in Utah and New Mexico as long as you do not hunt in Utah and New Mexico.

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/Public-Access/Access-Summary

 

 

Is anyone familiar with these rules? @jpc

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by DPS Ammonite

[jpc]

2 hours ago, DPS Ammonite said:

 

 

In a related matter, it appears that you are allowed to cross the corners in Wyoming where public land and private land meet in a checkerboard pattern as long as you do not intend to “hunt” in the private land without permission.

Think of Four Corners, USA. You can cross from Arizona to Colorado even if you do not have permission to hunt and be in Utah and New Mexico as long as you do not hunt in Utah and New Mexico.

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/Public-Access/Access-Summary

 

 

@jpc

 

 

I found the quote below in the link above.  This gets agrued in WY's legislature every year, it seems.  To make it purely legal, if it is at all, you would need to know exactly where the corner is, which can be done if there is a corner marker, which there usually isn.t.  

 

"In 2004, the Wyoming Attorney General’s Office issued an opinion that “corner crossing” from one parcel of public land to another in order to hunt that other public parcel, depending on the factual situation involved, may not violate the game and fish trespass statute, but may be a criminal trespass violation.   The factual situation would include whether the person doing the “corner crossing” was hunting or intended to hunt private land at the time the corner was crossed." 

 

Do we have any land use lawyers here?

When they talk about hunting, they are specifically talking about living animals, not dead ones.  

 

It looks like casual surface collecting of inverts is legal.  Where do plants fall?  To collect 99% of plant fossils,you need to excavate, so I imagine that whoile it might be a gary area, it could easilybe construed as illegal.  

 

A few years ago, I tried to get a state excavation permit for an ichthyosaur on state land... for our state-operated museum.  The state does NOT have any guidelines for this and I got sent from one office to another and just gave up.  

 

In general, I avoid state lands whether on my own, or for the museum.  

 

There are a few fish quarries that operate on state lands.  The permit costs them 10,000 bucks.  The state lands office sent me the form to apply for that when I wanted an to collect the ichthyosaur. 

 

I may be inspired by this dicussion to persue this ichthyosaur some more....

[DPS Ammonite]

2 hours ago, jpc said:

I found the quote below in the link above.  This gets agrued in WY's legislature every year, it seems.  To make it purely legal, if it is at all, you would need to know exactly where the corner is, which can be done if there is a corner marker, which there usually isn.t.  

 

"In 2004, the Wyoming Attorney General’s Office issued an opinion that “corner crossing” from one parcel of public land to another in order to hunt that other public parcel, depending on the factual situation involved, may not violate the game and fish trespass statute, but may be a criminal trespass violation.   The factual situation would include whether the person doing the “corner crossing” was hunting or intended to hunt private land at the time the corner was crossed." 

 

Do we have any land use lawyers here?

When they talk about hunting, they are specifically talking about living animals, not dead ones.  

 

It looks like casual surface collecting of inverts is legal.  Where do plants fall?  To collect 99% of plant fossils,you need to excavate, so I imagine that whoile it might be a gary area, it could easilybe construed as illegal.  

 

A few years ago, I tried to get a state excavation permit for an ichthyosaur on state land... for our state-operated museum.  The state does NOT have any guidelines for this and I got sent from one office to another and just gave up.  

 

In general, I avoid state lands whether on my own, or for the museum.  

 

There are a few fish quarries that operate on state lands.  The permit costs them 10,000 bucks.  The state lands office sent me the form to apply for that when I wanted an to collect the ichthyosaur. 

 

I may be inspired by this dicussion to persue this ichthyosaur some more....

It appears that the state intends it  to be legal to cross at a corner if you are pursuing a legal activity such as hunting. Is fossil hunting included? probably. Maybe if you had a hunting permit in hand and said that you are scouting you could cross without problems. Are the sections and private vs state land boundaries marked by fence lines in Wyoming? 
 

Wyoming corner crossing opinions:

https://www.wyoleg.gov/InterimCommittee/2019/01-2019060313-04Trespass-CornerCrossing.pdf

A paleontologist friend of mine finds it easier to scout Arizona state lands for fossils by getting a hunting permit rather than by getting a fossil permit. Arizona state land is closed to nearly all uses by the public unless you have a use permit. Only professionals can collect fossils and then by permit only.

 

Plants are inverts unless they are defined (incorrectly) by the state as not including plants.

 

Wyoming has a permit for scientific fossil collecting that does not have a 10k minimum. Here is a link with a phone number. Good luck.

 

https://lands.wyo.gov/trust-land-management/mineral-leasing/fossil-permits

 

Lastly, keep a copy of relevant laws/rules with you. Government agents and officers are not always very familiar with the fossil collecting laws. I usually have to educate them.

 

I found some articles about corner crossings in the US. There is an attempt to make it legal to cross at corners throughout the US since the laws are vague in many areas.

 

https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/open-country/cornered-western-sportsmen-trapped-arcane-regulation-prohibiting-public-access/

 

https://www.backcountryhunters.org/support_nevada_bill_to_make_corner_crossing_legal

 

https://www.trcp.org/unlocking-public-lands/

 

Does anyone on the Forum have experience “crossing corners”?

 

Edited July 11, 2020 by DPS Ammonite

[minnbuckeye]

At least I know where the area is!!! A big thanks for all the help. I will stay away from State land just to be safe. Knocking on a door is still a possibility though. I will wait and see how much time I truly have. Finding new sites in territory I am completely unfamiliar with and little time  is difficult and time consuming.

[jpc]

4 hours ago, minnbuckeye said:

At least I know where the area is!!! A big thanks for all the help. I will stay away from State land just to be safe. Knocking on a door is still a possibility though. I will wait and see how much time I truly have. Finding new sites in territory I am completely unfamiliar with and little time  is difficult and time consuming.

There are no doors to knock on up there.  The private landonwer is a large land outfit based in Rock Springs 

[jpc]

16 hours ago, DPS Ammonite said:

It appears that the state intends it  to be legal to cross at a corner if you are pursuing a legal activity such as hunting. Is fossil hunting included? probably. Maybe if you had a hunting permit in hand and said that you are scouting you could cross without problems. Are the sections and private vs state land boundaries marked by fence lines in Wyoming? 
YOU'VE DONE A TON OF HOMEWORK HERE.  GOOD JOB.  THE WAY I READ IT IS THAT IT IS OK TO CROSS CORNERS TO HUNT, AS FAR AS THE GAME AND FISH ARE CONCERNED, BUT IT COULD STILL BE ILLEGAL TRESPASSING ACCORDING TO THE SHERIFF.  NO, SECTIONS ARE NOT FENCED IN THIS AREA, AND NOT THROUGH MOST OF THE STATE.  A LOT OF RANCHERS I KNOW DON'T EVEN KNOW EXACTLY WHERE THE PUBLIC LAND ON THEIR RANCH IS.  THEY DON'T NEED TO KNOW, THEY JUST NEED TO KNOW THE NUMBER OF ACRES.

Wyoming corner crossing opinions:

https://www.wyoleg.gov/InterimCommittee/2019/01-2019060313-04Trespass-CornerCrossing.pdf

A paleontologist friend of mine finds it easier to scout Arizona state lands for fossils by getting a hunting permit rather than by getting a fossil permit. Arizona state land is closed to nearly all uses by the public unless you have a use permit. Only professionals can collect fossils and then by permit only.

 

Plants are inverts unless they are defined (incorrectly) by the state as not including plants.

 

Wyoming has a permit for scientific fossil collecting that does not have a 10k minimum. Here is a link with a phone number. Good luck.

 

https://lands.wyo.gov/trust-land-management/mineral-leasing/fossil-permits

WOW.  THANKS FOR THIS.  THIS IS NEW SINCE I LAST LOOKED INTO THIS.  LOOKS LIKE THE STATE HAS BEEN DOING THEIR HOMEWORK, TOO. 

 

Lastly, keep a copy of relevant laws/rules with you. Government agents and officers are not always very familiar with the fossil collecting laws. I usually have to educate them.

 

I found some articles about corner crossings in the US. There is an attempt to make it legal to cross at corners throughout the US since the laws are vague in many areas.

 

https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/open-country/cornered-western-sportsmen-trapped-arcane-regulation-prohibiting-public-access/

 

https://www.backcountryhunters.org/support_nevada_bill_to_make_corner_crossing_legal

 

https://www.trcp.org/unlocking-public-lands/

 

Does anyone on the Forum have experience “crossing corners”?

 

My comments in ALL CAPS above

[DPS Ammonite]

@JPC said:  “THE WAY I READ IT IS THAT IT IS OK TO CROSS CORNERS TO HUNT, AS FAR AS THE GAME AND FISH ARE CONCERNED, BUT IT COULD STILL BE ILLEGAL TRESPASSING ACCORDING TO THE SHERIFF.”

 

After reading more articles, it is clear, nowhere is it legal to cross corners. You are trespassing nearly by being above private property airspace close to the ground at the corner.  You may be arrested although not by the game warden. The Game and Fish rules do not address the legality of corner crossing only hunting in private property without permission. 

Some groups and the governments are buying access rights across private land or land outright to provide access to stranded properties. 
 

Here is one group that is trying to improve access to stranded public parcels, The Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership:

 

https://www.trcp.org/trcp-reports/reports/

 

[jpc]

On 7/11/2020 at 3:08 PM, DPS Ammonite said:

@JPC said:  “THE WAY I READ IT IS THAT IT IS OK TO CROSS CORNERS TO HUNT, AS FAR AS THE GAME AND FISH ARE CONCERNED, BUT IT COULD STILL BE ILLEGAL TRESPASSING ACCORDING TO THE SHERIFF.”

 

After reading more articles, it is clear, nowhere is it legal to cross corners. You are trespassing nearly by being above private property airspace close to the ground at the corner.  You may be arrested although not by the game warden. The Game and Fish rules do not address the legality of corner crossing only hunting in private property without permission. 

Some groups and the governments are buying access rights across private land or land outright to provide access to stranded properties. 
 

Here is one group that is trying to improve access to stranded public parcels, The Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership:

 

https://www.trcp.org/trcp-reports/reports/

 

This is an old post, but I thought I would add to it in case anyone else reads it, as this has been in the news in Wyoming  lately.  DPS amm is right... corner-crossing is ILLEGAL in Wyoming.  I was wrong in previous post (2 posts up).  

[Thomas.Dodson]

2 hours ago, jpc said:

This is an old post, but I thought I would add to it in case anyone else reads it, as this has been in the news in Wyoming  lately.  DPS amm is right... corner-crossing is ILLEGAL in Wyoming.  I was wrong in previous post (2 posts up).  

This really is a big problem across the midwest and something the courts need to eventually settle. In North Dakota section lines are treated as publicly traversable roads of the state and this cuts down on a lot of public land being land-locked but even here there are small public parcels that aren't accessible. I imagine this is increasingly frustrating as you move west and run into more land-locked BLM land.

[KCMOfossil]

On 7/11/2020 at 4:08 PM, DPS Ammonite said:

Here is one group that is trying to improve access to stranded public parcels, The Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership:

 

https://www.trcp.org/trcp-reports/reports/

Very interesting!  I had no idea this was the case.  Thanks for posting this.

 

Russ