Tidgy's Dad Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Hello, friends. Can anyone give me a helping hand identifying this, please? Not the Asaphellus trilobite, but the other object. This is Moroccan Fezouata, so Early Ordovician. Notice the thoracic segments curve the opposite way to most trilobites. It is convex on both sides, though seemingly a bit flattened. It has a 'flange' on one side of the anterior and presumably had one on the other side. Bit of a trilo? Aglaspid? Xiphosurid? Some sort of echinoderm? Any guesses most welcome. Thank you very much. Scale here in inches : Removed a little more matrix. Scale here in cm. This shows the trilobite better! Thanks again. Cheers, Adam and Tidgy. 3 Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praefectus Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 I'm not sure what your other object is, but the trilobite is beautiful. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 It has some similarity to the aglaspidid Tremaglaspis. For an expert evaluation I would send the photos to Peter Van Roy: LINK (scroll to bottom for contact info) Van Roy, P., Orr, P.J., Botting, J.P., Muir, L.A., Vinther, J., Lefebvre, B., El Hariri, K., Briggs, D.E.G. 2010. Ordovician Faunas of Burgess Shale Type. Nature, 465:215-218 PDF LINK Ortega-Hernández, J., Van Roy, P., Lerosey-Aubril, R. 2016 A New Aglaspidid Euarthropod with a six-segmented trunk from the Lower Ordovician Fezouata Konservat-Lagerstätte, Morocco. Geological Magazine, 153:524-536 PDF LINK 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Praefectus said: I'm not sure what your other object is, but the trilobite is beautiful. Thanks. I think they're pretty, too. Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 hour ago, piranha said: It has some similarity to the aglaspidid Tremaglaspis. For an expert evaluation I would send the photos to Peter Van Roy: Thanks, Scott, I'll do that. I had considered Tremaglaspis, but the segments curve the wrong way and the 'flange' put me off. But I'm still thinking aglaspid, which would be great. 1 Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 Message sent to Doctor Van Roy. 2 Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Perhaps you have a bumastus pygidium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 4 hours ago, westcoast said: Perhaps you have a bumastus pygidium Thanks for the thought, and I won't rule anything out, but I don't think Bumastus is recorded from the Fezouata, I see no evidence of eyes,(though one wouldn't on a pygidium) the thorax tapers too much. Also this specimen appears to be convex on both sides, trilobites don't have an underside to speak of. Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 I was coming at it more from your observation that 'the thoracic segments curve the opposite way to most trilobites' angle thinking maybe you were just looking at it the wrong way around . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted July 22, 2020 Author Share Posted July 22, 2020 10 hours ago, westcoast said: I was coming at it more from your observation that 'the thoracic segments curve the opposite way to most trilobites' angle thinking maybe you were just looking at it the wrong way around . I see where you're coming from and it's a good thought which i won't discard, but it still doesn't quite fit. Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 15 hours ago, Tidgy's Dad said: Thanks for the thought, and I won't rule anything out, but I don't think Bumastus is recorded from the Fezouata, I see no evidence of eyes,(though one wouldn't on a pygidium) the thorax tapers too much. Also this specimen appears to be convex on both sides, trilobites don't have an underside to speak of. This is a great thread! I sit in my small pond, knowing a lot about what I find in Florida, but I have almost no expertise on the fossils of the world, and even the terminology. It would take me 30 minutes to research and figure out what you said in those 2 sentences above. But I can enjoy your photos and almost understand Piranha's response... A great hobby. So many fossils, so little time. 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted July 22, 2020 Author Share Posted July 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Shellseeker said: This is a great thread! I sit in my small pond, knowing a lot about what I find in Florida, but I have almost no expertise on the fossils of the world, and even the terminology. It would take me 30 minutes to research and figure out what you said in those 2 sentences above. But I can enjoy your photos and almost understand Piranha's response... A great hobby. So many fossils, so little time. Thanks. You're right, I get the same when I read your threads, all those shark's and the associated terminology, stratigraphy and classification, lots of other beautiful finds, too. Sill, I know what a bourlette is now! 1 Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 On 7/21/2020 at 9:52 AM, Tidgy's Dad said: Sorry I was distracted and missed this photo previously.. ..this is the doublure (w/terracing lines) of an asaphid trilobite. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted July 22, 2020 Author Share Posted July 22, 2020 1 hour ago, piranha said: Sorry I was distracted and missed this photo previously.. ..this is the doublure (w/terracing lines) of an asaphid trilobite. Thanks again, Scott. Bit disappointing, but hey ho. Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted July 23, 2020 Author Share Posted July 23, 2020 NEWSFLASH! ! ! This just in : My great friend @Bobby Rico contacted his associate Dr. Bob Kennedy in the UK. He replied very promptly : " ......your mystery fossil is, I think trilobite and probably represents part of a folded Illaeniform species. In dorsal view you have just the cranidium, with the right hand 'flange' a product of compression, with three axial sections of somites only; further preparation should confirm this. The most telling feature is the distinct sub-parallel terracing anteriorly on the exposed doublure. The Asaphid by the way, is not Asaphellus, (s.s.) which has smooth pygidial pleural regions. It is more similar to a plexus of approximately coeval species in UK, which Fortey and Owens 1987, named Merlinia. If you do get the specimen prepared, and it is not a trilobite, I would be interested to see images again................... I hope it helps." Well, so at least I've got a different trilobite or maybe two. Not sure i can prep it any further, though. @westcoast, you were likely on the right track after all with your idea of Bumastus. That is an Illaenid pygidium, though this is probably a different genus, it would appear. Thank you, good call! @piranha, Hi, Scott, I thought you might be interested in this response as well. Dr. Van Roy has not yet responded, but it's still early doors. Thanks everyone, I shall, of course, keep this thread updated when i have anything new to add. 5 Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 Nice. Is it not wonderful when an investigation blossoms ? 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted July 23, 2020 Author Share Posted July 23, 2020 24 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: Nice. Is it not wonderful when an investigation blossoms ? Indeed it is. Very rewarding and one of the lovely things about this forum. Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Tidgy's Dad said: This just in : My great friend @Bobby Rico contacted his associate Dr. Bob Kennedy in the UK. He replied very promptly : In dorsal view you have just the cranidium Incorrect ... the segments are oriented rearward toward the pygidium. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted July 23, 2020 Author Share Posted July 23, 2020 1 minute ago, piranha said: Incorrect ... the segments are oriented rearward toward the pygidium. Thanks. So this could be the pygidium of an Illaenid, as @westcoast suggested? And the asaphid could be something like Merlinia? 1 Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, Tidgy's Dad said: So this could be the pygidium of an Illaenid, as @westcoast suggested? Or an asaphid ... there is nothing diagnostic one way or the other. The first thing I would worry about is telling the head from the tail! 3 minutes ago, Tidgy's Dad said: And the asaphid could be something like Merlinia? It may be similar but Merlinia is not a valid species in Morocco. compare your specimens and the indistinct pygidial ribbing: Asaphellus aff. jujuanus Vidal, M. 1998 Trilobites (Asaphidae et Raphiophoridae) de l'Ordovicien Inférieur de l'Anti-Atlas, Maroc. [Trilobites (Asaphidae and Raphiophoridae) from the Early Ordovician of the Anti-Atlas, Morocco.] Palaeontographica Abt.A, 251:39-77 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted July 23, 2020 Author Share Posted July 23, 2020 14 minutes ago, piranha said: Or an asaphid ... there is nothing diagnostic one way or the other. The first thing I would worry about is telling the head from the tail! It may be similar but Merlinia is not a valid species in Morocco. compare your specimens and the indistinct pygidial ribbing: Asaphellus aff. jujuanus. Thank you. Yeah, well I did say the segments curved the wrong way from the anterior right from the beginning. And I thought the trilo was Asaphellus. Shame the mystery bit wasn't an aglaspid, though. Still, two out of three ain't bad. 1 Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 There are so many photos in this thread.. ..it tends to be difficult to sort them all out! These are Asaphellus: On 7/21/2020 at 1:03 PM, Tidgy's Dad said: This one matches Vidal: Asaphidae gen. et sp. indet. On 7/21/2020 at 9:52 AM, Tidgy's Dad said: figures from: Vidal, M. 1998 Trilobites (Asaphidae et Raphiophoridae) de l'Ordovicien Inférieur de l'Anti-Atlas, Maroc. [Trilobites (Asaphidae and Raphiophoridae) from the Early Ordovician of the Anti-Atlas, Morocco.] Palaeontographica Abt.A, 251:39-77 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 2 hours ago, piranha said: Incorrect ... the segments are oriented rearward toward the pygidium. Well this would not be the first time someone got the head end and the tail end confused! Don 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted July 24, 2020 Author Share Posted July 24, 2020 I have received a rather lovely response from the delightful Doctor Peter Van Roy. What nice people professional palaeontologists can be. Here's the bit that relates to this thread : "I can confirm this specimen indeed comes from the Fezouata, likely from the Floian part. However, I am afraid that the fossil indeed is not an aglaspidid or a xiphosurid... Looking at your photographs, I'm fairly sure it's an incomplete and folded asaphid trilobite - if you prep out the specimen, you may be able to expose the pygidium, which will help settle the exact identity. Both the morphology of the specimen and the pronounced terrace ridges point to a trilobite affinity, as does the preservation, which is typical of calcified skeletons. I'm sorry this is not a more exciting specimen - but it's still a nice little trilobite slab." So that's that, I think. @piranhaThanks once again for the contact e-mail and your comments. Thank you also to everyone else who commented and looked at this thread, it's been most interesting. 1 Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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