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Fezouata Mystery.........


Tidgy's Dad

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Tidgy's Dad

Hello, friends. 

Can anyone give me a helping hand identifying this, please?

Not the Asaphellus trilobite, but the other object. 

This is Moroccan Fezouata, so Early Ordovician. 

Notice the thoracic segments curve the opposite way to most trilobites. It is convex on both sides, though seemingly a bit flattened. It has a 'flange' on one side of the anterior and presumably had one on the other side. 

Bit of a trilo? Aglaspid? Xiphosurid? Some sort of echinoderm? 

Any guesses most welcome. 

Thank you very much. :)

Scale here in inches :

1.thumb.jpg.2bf200274cbb05a7def1f25e8ddd02df.jpg2.thumb.jpg.d0a3c9803b3ccb8fb575deacc2b519ec.jpg

3.thumb.jpg.386a2b15eb45ccd9980ef1fe30887969.jpg

4.thumb.jpg.bcaf2f3414279c7cb7626a7c71bf209f.jpg

Removed a little more matrix. Scale here in cm. 

5.thumb.jpg.1ed3367974be7891c59b81778d934d24.jpg

6.thumb.jpg.cb364683c26ea42deb4c503f9deb557b.jpg

7.thumb.jpg.c3340543f2145f9c9f53245267f78185.jpg

8.thumb.jpg.223e1cd1ee8889565cb5fbbad2d297de.jpg

9.thumb.jpg.3dcf95cdc49568708a2ca82d61158b30.jpg

10.thumb.jpg.3b8d4c70bc8db9d9b81e971d1cc246ad.jpg

11.thumb.jpg.d7c6a1b5373e005748c83e7fecca0648.jpg

This shows the trilobite better! 

12.thumb.jpg.ac9bfd2b53753285b08dab549299da12.jpg

Thanks again.

Cheers,

Adam and Tidgy. 

 

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I'm not sure what your other object is, but the trilobite is beautiful. 

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It has some similarity to the aglaspidid Tremaglaspis.  For an expert evaluation I would send the photos to Peter Van Roy: LINK (scroll to bottom for contact info)

 

image.thumb.png.4cc6b14cca75e95b7e71bc3458d890a3.png   image.png.23c7d75021353ff3f45bcb2c05d8fdd7.png

 

Van Roy, P., Orr, P.J., Botting, J.P., Muir, L.A., Vinther, J., Lefebvre, B., El Hariri, K., Briggs, D.E.G. 2010. Ordovician Faunas of Burgess Shale Type. Nature, 465:215-218  PDF LINK

 

Ortega-Hernández, J., Van Roy, P., Lerosey-Aubril, R. 2016

A New Aglaspidid Euarthropod with a six-segmented trunk from the Lower Ordovician Fezouata Konservat-Lagerstätte, Morocco. Geological Magazine, 153:524-536  PDF LINK

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Tidgy's Dad
1 hour ago, Praefectus said:

I'm not sure what your other object is, but the trilobite is beautiful. 

Thanks. I think they're pretty, too.

Asaphellus1.thumb.jpg.c1d7a88b27feb7a9e8aa8d340286216e.jpg

 

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Tidgy's Dad
1 hour ago, piranha said:

It has some similarity to the aglaspidid Tremaglaspis.  For an expert evaluation I would send the photos to Peter Van Roy:

Thanks, Scott, I'll do that. :)

I had considered Tremaglaspis, but the segments curve the wrong way and the 'flange' put me off. 

But I'm still thinking aglaspid, which would be great. 

 

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Tidgy's Dad

Message sent to Doctor Van Roy. :fingerscrossed:

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Tidgy's Dad
4 hours ago, westcoast said:

Perhaps you have a bumastus pygidium

Thanks for the thought, and I won't rule anything out, but I don't think Bumastus is recorded from the Fezouata, I see no evidence of eyes,(though one wouldn't on a pygidium)  the thorax tapers too much. Also this specimen appears to be convex on both sides, trilobites don't have an underside to speak of. 

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I was coming at it more from your observation that 'the thoracic segments curve the opposite way to most trilobites' angle thinking maybe you were just looking at it the wrong way around :)

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Tidgy's Dad
10 hours ago, westcoast said:

I was coming at it more from your observation that 'the thoracic segments curve the opposite way to most trilobites' angle thinking maybe you were just looking at it the wrong way around :)

I see where you're coming from and it's a good thought which i won't discard, but it still doesn't quite fit. 

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Shellseeker
15 hours ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

Thanks for the thought, and I won't rule anything out, but I don't think Bumastus is recorded from the Fezouata, I see no evidence of eyes,(though one wouldn't on a pygidium)  the thorax tapers too much. Also this specimen appears to be convex on both sides, trilobites don't have an underside to speak of. 

 

This is a great thread!  I sit in my small pond, knowing a lot about what I find in Florida, but I have almost no expertise on the fossils of the world,  and even the terminology.  It would take me 30 minutes to research and figure out what you said in those 2 sentences above.

But I can enjoy your photos and almost understand Piranha's response...

A great hobby.  So many fossils, so little time.

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Tidgy's Dad
1 hour ago, Shellseeker said:

 

This is a great thread!  I sit in my small pond, knowing a lot about what I find in Florida, but I have almost no expertise on the fossils of the world,  and even the terminology.  It would take me 30 minutes to research and figure out what you said in those 2 sentences above.

But I can enjoy your photos and almost understand Piranha's response...

A great hobby.  So many fossils, so little time.

Thanks. 

You're right, I get the same when I read your threads, all those shark's and the associated terminology, stratigraphy and classification, lots of other beautiful finds, too. 

Sill, I know what a bourlette is now! :) 

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On 7/21/2020 at 9:52 AM, Tidgy's Dad said:

10.thumb.jpg.3b8d4c70bc8db9d9b81e971d1cc246ad.jpg

 

Sorry I was distracted and missed this photo previously.. mail?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmail.yimg.com%2Fok%2Fu%2Fassets%2Fimg%2Femoticons%2Femo71.gif&t=1595442981&ymreqid=23281213-8dc1-3cff-1ca3-520003019800&sig=Ge1xELTWPRXKANCT9_UdnA--~D ..this is the doublure (w/terracing lines) of an asaphid trilobite. 

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Tidgy's Dad
1 hour ago, piranha said:

 

Sorry I was distracted and missed this photo previously.. mail?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmail.yimg.com%2Fok%2Fu%2Fassets%2Fimg%2Femoticons%2Femo71.gif&t=1595442981&ymreqid=23281213-8dc1-3cff-1ca3-520003019800&sig=Ge1xELTWPRXKANCT9_UdnA--~D ..this is the doublure (w/terracing lines) of an asaphid trilobite. 

Thanks again, Scott. Bit disappointing, but hey ho. :shrug:

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Tidgy's Dad

NEWSFLASH! ! ! 

 

This just in :

My great friend @Bobby Rico contacted his associate Dr. Bob Kennedy in the UK. He replied very promptly : 

" ......your mystery fossil is, I think trilobite and probably represents part of a folded Illaeniform species. In dorsal view you have just the cranidium, with the right hand 'flange' a product of compression, with three axial sections of somites only; further preparation should confirm this.

 

The most telling feature is the distinct sub-parallel terracing anteriorly on the exposed doublure. 

 

The Asaphid by the way, is not Asaphellus, (s.s.) which has smooth pygidial pleural regions. It is more similar to a plexus of approximately coeval species in UK, which Fortey and Owens 1987, named Merlinia. 

 

If you do get the specimen prepared, and it is not a trilobite, I would be interested to see images again...................

 

I hope it helps." 

 

Well, so at least I've got a different trilobite or maybe two. 

Not sure i can prep it any further, though. 

@westcoast, you were likely on the right track after all with your idea of Bumastus. That is an Illaenid pygidium, though this is probably a different genus, it would appear. Thank you, good call! 

@piranha, Hi, Scott, I thought you might be interested in this response as well. 

 

Dr. Van Roy has not yet responded, but it's still early doors. 

 

Thanks everyone, I shall, of course, keep this thread updated when i have anything new to add.  :)

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Shellseeker

Nice.  Is it not wonderful when an investigation blos:thumbsu:soms ?

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Tidgy's Dad
24 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

Nice.  Is it not wonderful when an investigation blos:thumbsu:soms ?

Indeed it is. Very rewarding and one of the lovely things about this forum. :default_clap2:

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1 hour ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

This just in :

My great friend @Bobby Rico contacted his associate Dr. Bob Kennedy in the UK. He replied very promptly : In dorsal view you have just the cranidium

 

Incorrect ... the segments are oriented rearward toward the pygidium.

 

image.png.0a1bdaf9acfff504bfb1adaf4750d10a.png

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Tidgy's Dad
1 minute ago, piranha said:

 

Incorrect ... the segments are oriented rearward toward the pygidium.

Thanks. 

So this could be the pygidium of an Illaenid, as @westcoast suggested? 

And the asaphid could be something like Merlinia? 

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2 minutes ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

So this could be the pygidium of an Illaenid, as @westcoast suggested?

 

Or an asaphid ... there is nothing diagnostic one way or the other.  The first thing I would worry about is telling the head from the tail! :P

 

3 minutes ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

And the asaphid could be something like Merlinia? 

 

It may be similar but Merlinia is not a valid species in Morocco.

 

compare your specimens and the indistinct pygidial ribbing: Asaphellus aff. jujuanus

image.png.6d458fec42eabfa432a14e9ef09fb123.png

 

Vidal, M. 1998

Trilobites (Asaphidae et Raphiophoridae) de l'Ordovicien Inférieur de l'Anti-Atlas, Maroc.

[Trilobites (Asaphidae and Raphiophoridae) from the Early Ordovician of the Anti-Atlas, Morocco.]

Palaeontographica Abt.A, 251:39-77

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Tidgy's Dad
14 minutes ago, piranha said:

 

Or an asaphid ... there is nothing diagnostic one way or the other.  The first thing I would worry about is telling the head from the tail! :P

 

 

It may be similar but Merlinia is not a valid species in Morocco.

 

compare your specimens and the indistinct pygidial ribbing: Asaphellus aff. jujuanus. 

Thank you. 

Yeah, well I did say the segments curved the wrong way from the anterior right from the beginning. 

And I thought the trilo was Asaphellus. 

Shame the mystery bit wasn't an aglaspid, though. 

Still, two out of three ain't bad. :rolleyes:

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There are so many photos in this thread.. eyepopping.gif ..it tends to be difficult to sort them all out!:default_faint:

 

These are Asaphellus:

On 7/21/2020 at 1:03 PM, Tidgy's Dad said:

Asaphellus1.thumb.jpg.c1d7a88b27feb7a9e8aa8d340286216e.jpg

 

This one matches Vidal: Asaphidae gen. et sp. indet.

On 7/21/2020 at 9:52 AM, Tidgy's Dad said:

2.thumb.jpg.d0a3c9803b3ccb8fb575deacc2b519ec.jpg

 

 

image.thumb.png.6f17b7c658abe7f73db634a828097270.png

figures from:

 

Vidal, M. 1998

Trilobites (Asaphidae et Raphiophoridae) de l'Ordovicien Inférieur de l'Anti-Atlas, Maroc.

[Trilobites (Asaphidae and Raphiophoridae) from the Early Ordovician of the Anti-Atlas, Morocco.]

Palaeontographica Abt.A, 251:39-77

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2 hours ago, piranha said:

 

Incorrect ... the segments are oriented rearward toward the pygidium.

 

image.png.0a1bdaf9acfff504bfb1adaf4750d10a.png

Well this would not be the first time someone got the head end and the tail end confused!

 

Don

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Tidgy's Dad

I have received a rather lovely response from the delightful Doctor Peter Van Roy. What nice people professional palaeontologists can be. :)

Here's the bit that relates to this thread : 

"I can confirm this specimen indeed comes from the Fezouata, likely from the Floian part. However, I am afraid that the fossil indeed is not an aglaspidid or a xiphosurid... Looking at your photographs, I'm fairly sure it's an incomplete and folded asaphid trilobite - if you prep out the specimen, you may be able to expose the pygidium, which will help settle the exact identity. Both the morphology of the specimen and the pronounced terrace ridges point to a trilobite affinity, as does the preservation, which is typical of calcified skeletons. 

 

I'm sorry this is not a more exciting specimen - but it's still a nice little trilobite slab." 

 

So that's that, I think. @piranhaThanks once again for the contact e-mail and your comments. 

Thank you also to everyone else who commented and looked at this thread, it's been most interesting.:beer:

 

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