Jump to content

ancient bison or just cow tooth in London Thames


forlino

Recommended Posts

found this tooth in the London Thames River. from what i have read it could be an old bison tooth and not a cow tooth. im hoping its a bison tooth. it surely feels like stone its heavy. but i am no expert. hoping somebody could tell me if it’s fossilised and which animal it comes from. some people say the isolated stylid on one side makes it look like a bison. somebody else said the great size of it could mean bison. thank you so much for your help.

740B1836-C63B-4297-8E6A-EA295ED52894.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome to the Forum. :) 

We will need to see an in focus view of the occlusal (chewing) surface.

    Tim    -  VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER

   MOTM.png.61350469b02f439fd4d5d77c2c69da85.png      PaleoPartner.png.30c01982e09b0cc0b7d9d6a7a21f56c6.png.a600039856933851eeea617ca3f2d15f.png     Postmaster1.jpg.900efa599049929531fa81981f028e24.jpg    VFOTM.png.f1b09c78bf88298b009b0da14ef44cf0.png  VFOTM  --- APRIL - 2015  

__________________________________________________
"In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks."

John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~   ><))))( *>  About Me      

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

Welcome to the Forum. :) 

We will need to see an in focus view of the occlusal (chewing) surface.

see reply above. sorry i only just figured out how to use this site and “quote” a reply to you. thank you so much 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Need to see straight down onto the chewing surface. 

This one is close, but still at an oblique angle. 

 

FCA411AD-9554-41BC-B98A-3ABF69AF22CC.jpeg.919851e9f2b7103f821a4d6e2985a25a.jpeg

 

Try setting it between two books, so that you are not getting any shaking... =blurry pics.

Best if it is stationary, rather than hand held. 

    Tim    -  VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER

   MOTM.png.61350469b02f439fd4d5d77c2c69da85.png      PaleoPartner.png.30c01982e09b0cc0b7d9d6a7a21f56c6.png.a600039856933851eeea617ca3f2d15f.png     Postmaster1.jpg.900efa599049929531fa81981f028e24.jpg    VFOTM.png.f1b09c78bf88298b009b0da14ef44cf0.png  VFOTM  --- APRIL - 2015  

__________________________________________________
"In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks."

John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~   ><))))( *>  About Me      

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

Need to see straight down onto the chewing surface. 

This one is close, but still at an oblique angle. 

 

FCA411AD-9554-41BC-B98A-3ABF69AF22CC.jpeg.919851e9f2b7103f821a4d6e2985a25a.jpeg

 

Try setting it between two books, so that you are not getting any shaking... =blurry pics.

Best if it is stationary, rather than hand held. 

hole seems cemented shut with hard stuff so cant quite see inside any hole. how is this? thank you again so much 

89083228-F0CE-4000-96E8-44FAFFDB53B4.jpeg

2B84C8B4-2470-4D9E-86FB-2491F67F9284.jpeg

732F3F57-6F92-4199-B6E5-BED3AC772AB0.jpeg

23873E93-BFD9-46A5-A1B3-C35A463D2DF8.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Much better.  :) 

 

@Harry Pristis

    Tim    -  VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER

   MOTM.png.61350469b02f439fd4d5d77c2c69da85.png      PaleoPartner.png.30c01982e09b0cc0b7d9d6a7a21f56c6.png.a600039856933851eeea617ca3f2d15f.png     Postmaster1.jpg.900efa599049929531fa81981f028e24.jpg    VFOTM.png.f1b09c78bf88298b009b0da14ef44cf0.png  VFOTM  --- APRIL - 2015  

__________________________________________________
"In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks."

John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~   ><))))( *>  About Me      

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What are the exact measurements of the red lines ? It is all based on size; Bison have bigger teeth

Read this TFF thread http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/57842-bison-tooth/

By the way,  NICE tooth... great coloration,  even if it turns out to be cow...

image.png.29badb7b961b93dc557a717c16b816d8.png

 

  • I found this Informative 1

The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Shellseeker said:

What are the exact measurements of the red lines ? It is all based on size; Bison have bigger teeth

Read this TFF thread http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/57842-bison-tooth/

image.png.29badb7b961b93dc557a717c16b816d8.png

 

it is 32mm left to right and 20mm up and down based on your red lines. and the tooth length from root to chewing surface is 60mm. only problem with the measurements is some cow teeth are large and some bison teeth are small so from what ive read a cow molar is larger than a bisons smaller teeth. also depends on cow or bison maturity surely?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, forlino said:

it is 32mm left to right and 20mm up and down based on your red lines. and the tooth length from root to chewing surface is 60mm. only problem with the measurements is some cow teeth are large and some bison teeth are small so from what ive read a cow molar is larger than a bisons smaller teeth. also depends on cow or bison maturity surely?

 

While what you say is correct,  it is mitigated by comparing "like" teeth positions and the significant difference in size, around 20-30 % of the tooth... Harry provides the same tooth (old adult/young adult for Bison) and average length of an adult cow... 40 versus 31 mm is a BIG difference.

The next step is to identify the jaw position of your tooth, and then the average size of that jaw position between Bison and cow.

image.png.5195a24d613ad993774bbf67c0490ef1.png

 

image.png.de61e6b559b2eb2fda8e9846760fbd71.png

  • I found this Informative 1

The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is a lower left Bison Jaw, I would guess you have the "m1", 1st molar

LeftBisonJaw.JPG.cd5144c462469953bd54554353bb1990.JPG

 

  • I found this Informative 1

The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Shellseeker said:

Here is a lower left Bison Jaw, I would guess you have the "m1", 1st molar

LeftBisonJaw.JPG.cd5144c462469953bd54554353bb1990.JPG

 

i see what ypu mean! brilliant it definitely looks like an m1. i wonder if cows have that same tooth called an m1 and i can compare averages

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, forlino said:

i see what ypu mean! brilliant it definitely looks like an m1. i wonder if cows have that same tooth called an m1 and i can compare averages

The reason that I post so frequently is that I am finding these answers on the internet in real time.

https://geoinfo.nmt.edu/publications/periodicals/nmg/29/n2/nmg_v29_n2_p39.pdf

Bison_Antiquestable.JPG.03beca2a8bcfaba23ed9fbb7ef183690.JPG

This looks interesting, but not confirming the ID, because the table is for a juvenile Bison Antiques

  • I found this Informative 1

The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This appears to be an upper molar.  The animal died fairly young which MAY or may not indicate it was slaughtered.  The Thames was used to dispose of slaughterhouse waste, so such teeth are a challenge.  I think the default assumption is that it is cow.

 

 

bison_P2_M3.JPG

  • I found this Informative 2

http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page

 

What seest thou else

In the dark backward and abysm of time?

---Shakespeare, The Tempest

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

This appears to be an upper molar.  The animal died fairly young which MAY or may not indicate it was slaughtered.  The Thames was used to dispose of slaughterhouse waste, so such teeth are a challenge.  I think the default assumption is that it is cow.

 

 

bison_P2_M3.JPG

yes but only thing is i have found many cow teeth in this river, old and new but this is much larger much heavier and appears to be stone. so this is why i have the question

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

The reason that I post so frequently is that I am finding these answers on the internet in real time.

https://geoinfo.nmt.edu/publications/periodicals/nmg/29/n2/nmg_v29_n2_p39.pdf

Bison_Antiquestable.JPG.03beca2a8bcfaba23ed9fbb7ef183690.JPG

This looks interesting, but not confirming the ID, because the table is for a juvenile Bison Antiques

if only we knew the M1 molar size for a cow, to compare

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

This appears to be an upper molar.  The animal died fairly young which MAY or may not indicate it was slaughtered.  The Thames was used to dispose of slaughterhouse waste, so such teeth are a challenge.  I think the default assumption is that it is cow.

 

 

bison_P2_M3.JPG

any way to figure if it is stone or tooth?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

 

While what you say is correct,  it is mitigated by comparing "like" teeth positions and the significant difference in size, around 20-30 % of the tooth... Harry provides the same tooth (old adult/young adult for Bison) and average length of an adult cow... 40 versus 31 mm is a BIG difference.

The next step is to identify the jaw position of your tooth, and then the average size of that jaw position between Bison and cow.

image.png.5195a24d613ad993774bbf67c0490ef1.png

 

image.png.de61e6b559b2eb2fda8e9846760fbd71.png

according to this scale, a bison m3 is 40mm roughly, m3 is a tooth with three chambers. m1 is a tooth with two chambers so its the right size to be an adult bison. an m1 cow would be under 20mm compared to the 33 of the one i found. any idea though, if this looks like stone or tooth?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, forlino said:

according to this scale, a bison m3 is 40mm roughly, m3 is a tooth with three chambers. m1 is a tooth with two chambers so its the right size to be an adult bison. an m1 cow would be under 20mm compared to the 33 of the one i found. any idea though, if this looks like stone or tooth?

Harry has identified your find as an upper molar -- M1 or M2, not a lower and he is correct...

 

If you look at the table above, you'll see the differences in sizes between an M1, M2, and a m1  and that is for an American Bison.

You would have to compare to a UK Bison... Bison Priscus ? I am well above my knowledge quotient here...

 

There is a "burn test" for fossils... you can search for it on google. Basically if you stick h heated pin into the fossil and small any oder, it is modern...

image.thumb.png.f8a0f98a174b3053eb14255ba093851e.png

 

The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...