Cyclocrinites in Arizona?

[Mr.Waffles]

I'm in Northern Arizona in an area full of crinoid, bryozoan, and brachiopod fossils. Recently I found what I believe might be a cyclocrinite. It's round, about the size of my thumb, and pitted like a golf ball. Its been suggested that this might be a calyx from a crinoid but since the hexagons on my fossil extend inward and not outward, I have my doubts. It looks like this thing was trapped in a pocket when it was fossilized. You can even see some space between the fossil and the material around it. The last picture shows the section of the stack that broke off, revealing the fossil inside. I thought about cracking it open but I'm concerned about damaging the fossil. Any thoughts on what this might be?

 

If its not a cyclocrinite my other theory is that some poor caveman lost his golf ball in a water hazard on a 500 million years ago.

I'm new to the forum and you guys are the experts here so any help would be appreciated!

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Mr.Waffles

[Harry Pristis]

Interesting piece.  We don't see many Cyclocrinites on the Forum.  Here's one:

 

 

Here's what FOSSILS OF OHIO (1996) says:
Order Dasycladales (calcareous green algae)[dasyclads] 
   Family Dasycladaceae (extinct and recent)
   Family Receptaculitaceae (extinct)   
      Tribe Receptaculiteae [receptaculitids]
      Tribe Cyclocriniteae [cyclocrinitids]
         Genus Cyclocrinites

 

"Fossils of this order [dasyclads] are only rarely recognized by collectors.". . .
 
"Fossil dasyclads are globose to cylindrical or club shaped in outline. They grew on the sea floor to several centimenters in height. 

"Internally, a central, noncalcareous structure, the stem or stipe, was surrounded by worled branches or protuberances (rays). . . . They are generally visible only in cracked or broken specimens. 

 

"The primary branches or rays of some dasyclads are rounded at the tip; some have bristlelike or spinelike appendages; others have cuplike or prismlike tips that may be fused as an outer covering of small polygons.

 

"In cyclocrinitids, the end of each branch is expanded or branched to form a terminal rhomboidal plate. Each plate is one facet in a fused network of terminal plates of other lateral branches so that the surface of the whole body appears as a reticulate shell of calcareous prisms. . . .

 

"Cyclocrinities is generally a somewhat flattened sphere that has an indentation there the stem (pedicel) was attached. The main central axis was short; lateral branches were very slender, almost rodlike, and arranged in whorls around the central axis. The distal ends of the branches were swollen, and adjacent swollen branch tips coalesced to form the heads, which were polygonal (generally six-sided) in outline at the surface of the spherical body. These polygonal facets were calcified." . . .

[piranha]

Cyclocrinites is an Ordovician-Silurian genus.  The Ordovician-Silurian is absent in Northern Arizona.

 

 

Nitecki, M.H., Webby, B.D., Spjeldnaes, N., Yong-Yi, Z. 2004. Receptaculitids and Algae.

In: The Great Ordovician Biodiversification Event. Columbia University Press, 484 pp.

[Al Dente]

1 hour ago, Mr.Waffles said:

I'm in Northern Arizona in an area full of crinoid, bryozoan, and brachiopod fossils. Recently I found what I believe might be a cyclocrinite. It's round, about the size of my thumb, and pitted like a golf ball.

It might be the internal cast of a crinoid calyx.

[Mr.Waffles]

Very interesting.

Maybe I have a crinod calyx afterall? I haven't seen any examples of cyclocrinites in Arizona which is why I thought I should ask for opinions.

If this was your fossil would you try to break open the rock to expose more of the fossil or leave it be? I'm leaning towards just leaving it as is.

[DPS Ammonite]

You have the most common type of Mississippian crinoid internal mold (and part of the exterior mold that is mostly hidden) from the chert of the Thunder Springs Member of the Redwall Limestone. It is probably a Actinocrinitidae calyx.
 

Where did you find it?

 

See photo from @Arizona Chris website:

http://www.schursastrophotography.com/paleo/latest/youngredwall09.html

Also see part of Chris Schur’s paper where he mentions several types of crinoids:

Schur, Chris. (1995). Transitional Lithology and Paleofauna for the Escabrosa and Redwall Limestone Contact in Central Arizona. Found in: Proceedings of the third annual Fossils of Arizona Symposium, November 18, 1995 / edited by Debra Boaz ... [et al.].

link.  

 

[Mr.Waffles]

7 minutes ago, DPS Ammonite said:

You have the most common type of Mississippian crinoid internal mold from the chert of the Thunder Springs Member of the Redwall Limestone. It is probably a Actinocrinitidae calyx.
 

Where did you find it?

 

See photo from @Arizona Chris website:

http://www.schursastrophotography.com/paleo/latest/youngredwall09.html

Also see part of Chris Schur’s paper where he mentions several types of crinoids:

Schur, Chris. (1995). Transitional Lithology and Paleofauna for the Escabrosa and Redwall Limestone Contact in Central Arizona. Found in: Proceedings of the third annual Fossils of Arizona Symposium, November 18, 1995 / edited by Debra Boaz ... [et al.].

link.  

 

Yes this looks just like what I have. Thanks everyone. My calyx was found on the Mogollon Rim near Payson.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Mr.Waffles

[DPS Ammonite]

25 minutes ago, Mr.Waffles said:

 

If this was your fossil would you try to break open the rock to expose more of the fossil or leave it be? I'm leaning towards just leaving it as is.

From extensive personal experience with the the chert fossils of the Redwall, I would try to knock off with a small chisel and small hammer the small piece that is partially hiding the internal calyx mold. Hit in direction of the arrows nearly parallel and slightly down into the surface of the chert. Save the broken off piece; it might show an exterior mold of the calyx.

 

Show us what it looks like after you trim it.

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by DPS Ammonite

[Planko]

You sure that's not a golf ball hidden in there?  Anywho...how cool is that? Congrats on the find.

[Wrangellian]

I agree with DPS, I'd try to knock that piece off. If you end up with several fragments, you could glue them together (so be careful not to lose any!)

[minnbuckeye]

4 hours ago, Mr.Waffles said:

If this was your fossil would you try to break open the rock to expose more of the fossil or leave it be? I'm leaning towards just leaving it as is.

 

 Thinking out of the box, why not open a small spot on the back side, allowing light to enter and illuminate the calyx. Otherwise, I would leave the unique presentation as is. 

 

 Mike

[DPS Ammonite]

14 minutes ago, minnbuckeye said:

 

 Thinking out of the box, why not open a small spot on the back side, allowing light to enter and illuminate the calyx. Otherwise, I would leave the unique presentation as is. 

 

 Mike

Don’t do it. You have to work with Murphy when trying to expose or trim Redwall chert. If you chipped a window in the backside you would probably shatter the whole piece unless you had some power tools such as saws and drills that could also be used for ceramics/tile.

Edited August 18, 2020 by DPS Ammonite

[Mr.Waffles]

20 hours ago, DPS Ammonite said:

Don’t do it. You have to work with Murphy when trying to expose or trim Redwall chert. If you chipped a window in the backside you would probably shatter the whole piece unless you had some power tools such as saws and drills that could also be used for ceramics/tile.

DPS Ammonite, I followed your suggestion and the chert on top chipped off very nicely. I used a tiny hammer and chisel. This was as much as I was comfortable removing. The last picture shows where the calyx and the surrounding rock are kind of "fused" together. (I'm sure there's a more technical term for that). If you or anyone else has suggestions on how to remove more of the surrounding rock, I'm open to hearing it but I don't want to damage the fossil and I'm happy leaving it the way it is for now.

 

I really appreciate everyone's help and input so far.

 

P.S. I liked minnbuckeye's creativity but I don't posses the tools or skills to even attempt something like that. 

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Mr.Waffles

[DPS Ammonite]

I would not chip any more off the fossil. 

 

The area marked by the arrows where it is “fused” is probably where the arms attached. See attached Chris Schur photo with arm attachments highlighted.

See silicified Redwall crinoid calyx that I found that may or may not be from the same genus as yours. Mine is a negative form as yours. My originally carbonate calyx was replaced by chert. Yours is the space left after the carbonate calyx dissolved away after surrounding sediment was replaced with chert. Fill my hollow calyx and take it out (an interior mold) and it might look like

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by DPS Ammonite

[Mr.Waffles]

4 hours ago, DPS Ammonite said:

I would not chip any more off the fossil. 

 

 

The area marked by the arrows where it is “fused” is probably where the arms attached. See attached Chris Schur photo with arm attachments highlighted.

 

See silicified Redwall crinoid calyx that I found that may or may not be from the same genus as yours. Mine is a negative form as yours. My originally carbonate calyx was replaced by chert. Yours is the space left after the carbonate calyx dissolved away after surrounding sediment was replaced with chert. Fill my hollow calyx and take it out (an interior mold) and it might look like

 

 

 

I really appreciate your expertise. This is definitely the most interesting fossil I've found so far but I wouldn't have a clue what it was had it not been for you and the others on the forum. This has been very informative. I'm going to be heading back up there this weekend to see what else I can find.