Lizard in copal?

[DawnOfADream 63]

Hello everyone! I was just curious as to what you think of this specimen. I'm aware users here are (understandably) very sceptical of lizards in amber/copal, so I'd love to hear what you have toto say about it. 

 

Here are the details:

 

• Species is unknown
• From Colombia, thought to be from Pliocene/Pleistocene
• The lizard measures 30 millimetres. Total measurement with copal is 50 x 40 x 0.50 mm

Full image:

Base - partial tail and leg, with one foot visible on the right

Torso - possible predation? Also note the little stump where the leg should be.

Head - possible mineralised blood above head? Note large bug on the left

Bugs located at the top, to the right of the head

Edited August 28, 2020 by DawnOfADream
Edited details as per community guidelines.

[Randyw 1,122]

First of all is it amber or (more likely) copal. Copal is the stage between polymeization and amber. A good way to think of it is a modern horse skull versus a fossil horse skull. Same thing but one is ancient and valuable and the other goes on the trash heap. Some Columbia’s copal has been dated as young as 250 years. A lot of  dealers are trying to sell copal as young amber. Most amber collectors won’t touch copal. Copal often has somewhat spectacular inclusions wich are still basically worthless relatively speaking where the same inclusion in amber would be worth thousands or millions of dollars. (For rare specimens). For me if it’s copal I’d run. Run far and fast away from it. I would not even accept free pieces of copal even with inclusions. But that’s just my opinion. 

[DawnOfADream 63]

Thanks @Randyw. I failed to mention in the post that this specimen was estimated to be 1-5 million years old. I’m not sure if that has any impact on your assessment. Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.

[Mark Kmiecik 1,232]

Where did the lizard's bones go? 

[Randyw 1,122]

On 8/28/2020 at 6:04 AM, DawnOfADream said:

failed to mention in the post that this specimen was estimated to be 1-5 million years old. I’m not sure if that has any impact on your assessment.

Unfortunately no. The generally accepted youngest age of amber is 5-10 million years of age although some are trying to get it changed to 3 mya and some dealers are trying for 1mya. Resin becomes copal wich becomes amber as the volatile oils comes out. There is some Colombian amber. The problem is with the geological jumble you can find amber next to copal. Most of what is easily accessed is copal. A majority of what is coming out of Columbia is copal. Just for the record I do have some Colombian amber. But I won’t buy any Colombian unless I can personally perform the amber tests on it. I’ve told this next story before but it fits here. Several years back a friend of mine had a small rock and gem shop. He got in a shipment of 1,000 pieces of “Colombian amber” from a trusted  source. When we tested it 90% failed the amber test. Luckily he had purchased them from a trusted and ethical seller who promptly refunded his money and accepted the return. Technically amber and copal are resins just different ages so while calling copal young amber is misleading it’s not technically lying. So if this is a piece that was for sale I’d pass. If it was a piece I owned I’d immediately perform the easiest amber test wich is the salt water test. Dissolve 7 tsp of salt in a medium cup of water. Amber will float. Copal will but at a different lvl if you can get the mix right. Also amber is fluorescent and copal is not and it doesn’t damage the amber in the slightest.

[JohnJ 4,600]

Good information, @Randyw.

 

To all, let's keep the focus on the item, not the listing.

[Randyw 1,122]

Sorry @JohnJ I was just referencing the auction becuase of the age range listed in it for the piece.

[DawnOfADream 63]

7 hours ago, Randyw said:

Unfortunately no. The generally accepted youngest age of amber is 5-10 million years of age although some are trying to get it changed to 3 mya and some dealers are trying for 1mya. Resin becomes copal wich becomes amber as the volatile oils comes out. There is some Colombian amber. The problem is with the geological jumble you can find amber next to copal. Most of what is easily accessed is copal. A majority of what is coming out of Columbia is copal. Just for the record I do have some Colombian amber. But I won’t buy any Colombian unless I can personally perform the amber tests on it. I’ve told this next story before but it fits here. Several years back a friend of mine had a small rock and gem shop. He got in a shipment of 1,000 pieces of “Colombian amber” from a trusted  source. When we tested it 90% failed the amber test. Luckily he had purchased them from a trusted and ethical seller who promptly refunded his money and accepted the return. Technically amber and copal are resins just different ages so while calling copal young amber is misleading it’s not technically lying. So if this is a piece that was for sale I’d pass. If it was a piece I owned I’d immediately perform the easiest amber test wich is the salt water test. Dissolve 7 tsp of salt in a medium cup of water. Amber will float. Copal will not and it doesn’t damage the amber in the slightest.

Thanks for the wonderful information @Randyw. If anyone could direct me to some readings about Colombian cools that would be great!

[Randyw 1,122]

A lot of it is a paragraph here or there in papers about amber. However if you go to google scholar and type in Colombian amber you will find listings to scholarly papers about it. Many are pay wall protected though. But you do find comments in lots of other papers like the excerpt below. If you use regular google it brings up a lot of dealer sites and you can get a feel for the (Both good and bad) dealers Arguments and methods of sale.

[DawnOfADream 63]

On 29/08/2020 at 9:11 PM, Randyw said:

A lot of it is a paragraph here or there in papers about amber.

Wonderful resource, thanks again!

[Randyw 1,122]

@DawnOfADream I also forgot to mention an even easier test. Amber fluoresces under u.v. Light. Copal does not... these are some Burmese amber I’m going through. It looks even more striking in person then in the photos.

[Randyw 1,122]

[DawnOfADream 63]

1 minute ago, Randyw said:

@DawnOfADream I also forgot to mention an even easier test. Amber fluoresces under u.v. Light. Copal does not... these are some Burmese amber I’m going through. It looks even more striking in person then in the photos.

Thanks! I'll be sure to use that test in the future. That's a wonderful amber collection you have! I'm jealous.

[Randyw 1,122]

LOL! That’s just my unsearched jar....

[Josesaurus rex 9]

Hace 21 horas, Randyw dijo:

Jajaja Ese es solo mi frasco sin buscar ...

Piezas espectaculares, buena cantidad de ámbar. Tengo estos, el primero me lo vendieron como ámbar colombiano, y brilla bastante bien bajo la luz ultravioleta, pero no se captura bien en la foto. El segundo, nada brilla bajo la luz ultravioleta, por lo que creo, puede ser copal. De todos modos, ¿podrías darme tu opinión por favor?

 

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Josesaurus rex

[Randyw 1,122]

Translation:

Spectacular pieces, good amount of amber. I have these, the first one was sold to me as Colombian amber, and it glows quite well under UV light, but it doesn't capture well in the photo. The second, nothing glows under UV light, from what I think, it may be copal. Anyway, could you give me your opinion please?

[Randyw 1,122]

@Josesaurus rex
The first one looks good for amber. The second I suspect is copal. I would perform one of the other amber tests on the second piece to confirm.

1 the hot needle test. Heat a needle red hot and poke it into a hidden spot. If it goes in and smells like pine then it’s copal.

2 the acetone test. Put a drop of acetone on a hidden spot. If it gets sticky then it’s copal.
El primero se ve bien para el ámbar. El segundo que sospecho es el copal. Realizaría una de las otras pruebas de ámbar en la segunda pieza para confirmar. 1 la prueba de la aguja caliente. Calentar una aguja al rojo vivo y meterla en un lugar escondido. Si entra y huele a pino, entonces es copal. 2 la prueba de la acetona. Ponga una gota de acetona en un lugar escondido. Si se pone pegajoso, es copal.

[Josesaurus rex 9]

5 hours ago, Randyw said:

@Josesauro rex
El primero se ve bien para el ámbar. El segundo que sospecho es el copal. Realizaría una de las otras pruebas de ámbar en la segunda pieza para confirmar.

1 la prueba de la aguja caliente. Calentar una aguja al rojo vivo y meterla en un lugar escondido. Si entra y huele a pino, entonces es copal.

2 la prueba de la acetona. Ponga una gota de acetona en un lugar escondido. Si se pone pegajoso, entonces es copal.
El primero se ve bien para el ámbar. El segundo que sospecho es el copal. Realizaría una de las otras pruebas de ámbar en la segunda pieza para confirmar. 1 la prueba de la aguja caliente. Calentar una aguja al rojo vivo y meterla en un lugar escondido. Si entra y huele a pino, entonces es copal. 2 la prueba de la acetona. Ponga una gota de acetona en un lugar escondido. Si se pone pegajoso, es copal.

Ok, I'll run those tests and let you know what results I've gotten.  Thank you very much.

[Josesaurus rex 9]

Hace 5 horas, Randyw dijo:

Traducción:

Piezas espectaculares, buena cantidad de ámbar. Tengo estos, el primero me lo vendieron como ámbar colombiano, y brilla bastante bien bajo la luz ultravioleta, pero no se captura bien en la foto. El segundo, nada brilla bajo la luz ultravioleta, por lo que creo, puede ser copal. De todos modos, ¿podrías darme tu opinión por favor?

Well, Google translate is not very accurate, hahaha.  Thanks for correcting.

[daves64 751]

Amber usually fluoresces greenish blue under shortwave UV & white under longwave UV. Haven't tried midwave yet.

[Josesaurus rex 9]

2 hours ago, daves64 said:

El ámbar suele tener una fluorescencia azul verdosa bajo los rayos UV de onda corta y blanco bajo los rayos UV de onda larga. Aún no he probado la onda media.

Okay.  I tested it with an ultraviolet light that is found in the typical Chinese pencils that are sold in wholesale stores.  it may not be as powerful.

[Randyw 1,122]

I use a $10 up flashlight I got from the hobby store. I love the varieties of color I get from amber. Everything from light green to blue green to reddish to dark blue almost black. 

[Josesaurus rex 9]

On 1/9/2020 at 15:15, Randyw said:

Utilizo una linterna de $ 10 que compré en la tienda de pasatiempos. Me encantan las variedades de color que obtengo del ámbar. Todo, desde verde claro a verde azul a rojizo a azul oscuro casi . 

Fantastic!  I did not know that there was such a variety of colors.  If you have any photos, please upload them.  It will be interesting to see them.

[jdp 746]

I'm going to push back on what Randy is saying a little. Whether it is amber or copal shouldn't really affect your own assessment of its value to you so long as you're not looking to resell it or rely on it as an investment piece. If you like the way it looks and it gives you pleasure, that should be enough. I'll note that, if this is a lizard (I'm not convinced), a 1-3 million year old lizard fossil would actually have more or less the same scientific value regardless of the polymerization state of the enclosing resin.

[DawnOfADream 63]

@jdp thanks for your comment. I’ve always wanted something like this as part of my personal collection so resell/investment wouldn’t be an option unless the economy tanks further. Hopefully in the future I’ll be able to get better images of the specimen for you all to determine whether or not it is a lizard.