Bradley Flynn Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 Hi all, found this partial jaw a couple of weeks ago and I'm a little lost on what animal species this could have belonged to. If it is a terrestrial mammal it would be pleistocene in age, if it's a cetatean it could be miocene-pliocene in age. I am leaning towards terrestrial origin though. Anybody recognise this jaw fragment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Flynn Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share Posted November 8, 2020 Which family it belongs to will be good, I will research a possible species in my own time. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 A look straight on at the tooth socket may help. (someone ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahnmut Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 Hi Bradley, As far as I can see there seems to be one alveola of a tooth with a split root (if only slightly), then there is on for a minuscule single-rooted tooth, then a gap (diastema?) and what may be an eroded remnant of a big alveola at the tip of the jaw. Thats much heterodonty for a whale, I think to much for an extant species anyway. I would guess terrestrial, carnivore, maybe also Artiodactyl? As an Afterthought: Peccary? Maybe the foramina can tell someone with more expertise than me more. Best regards, J Try to learn something about everything and everything about something Thomas Henry Huxley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Flynn Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share Posted November 8, 2020 Here is a straight on picture of the tooth sockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Flynn Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share Posted November 8, 2020 @Mahnmut your assessment is good, will look into your suggestions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Flynn Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share Posted November 8, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Flynn Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share Posted November 8, 2020 Compared to some modern lower jaws that I have, the tooth sockets match a small canine bat eared fox and the formina seems to match with a small antilope species. First pic of jaw in question compared to small fox. Second and third pic is of a small antilope species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Flynn Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share Posted November 8, 2020 Im thinking carnivore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Flynn Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share Posted November 8, 2020 Been poking around on the webs and I am almost certain this jaw belonged to a small canine species, probably a fox. Thanks @Rockwood and @Mahnmut for pointing me in the right direction Any other input from the forum is welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahnmut Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 Hmm, Not easy. The alveolae seem to fit relatively well with the fox, the foramen and concave lower jawline in your last pic resemble the antelope more. If you find an artiodactyl with that little tooth behind the diastma (or a canid with that jawline) you have got a winner. Cheers, J Try to learn something about everything and everything about something Thomas Henry Huxley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 An occlusal view is standard issue for most mammal studies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 This is larger but the alveolae are similar, so moving left to right: m3, m2, m1 (carnassial). Not much new to add, except agreeing that is seems to be small predator, and canid is a good possibility. Nice find... http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/110034-mammal-mandible-for-id/ The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 Jumped a lovely red fox that was hunting in the grass down back just yesterday. Beautiful creatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Flynn Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share Posted November 8, 2020 4 hours ago, Rockwood said: An occlusal view is standard issue for most mammal studies. You are totally correct, teeth would make this much easier, but I must make an attempt on ID without the teeth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 1 minute ago, Bradley Flynn said: You are totally correct, teeth would make this much easier, but I must make an attempt on ID without the teeth I believe the term is valid in either application. Teeth or no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Flynn Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share Posted November 8, 2020 4 hours ago, Mahnmut said: Hmm, Not easy. The alveolae seem to fit relatively well with the fox, the foramen and concave lower jawline in your last pic resemble the antelope more. If you find an artiodactyl with that little tooth behind the diastma (or a canid with that jawline) you have got a winner. Cheers, J Thanks, I'm still poking around on the webs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Flynn Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share Posted November 8, 2020 @Shellseeker your input is always appreciated, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 Bradley, An interesting article, https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/sci-tech/2013-01-23-new-two-million-year-old-fox-fossil-found-at-sterkfontein/ What I find most unusual is the foramina. What is that.... does not seem like a break, but I see little similar on other fox jaws. Curious The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Flynn Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share Posted November 8, 2020 26 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: Bradley, An interesting article, https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/sci-tech/2013-01-23-new-two-million-year-old-fox-fossil-found-at-sterkfontein/ What I find most unusual is the foramina. What is that.... does not seem like a break, but I see little similar on other fox jaws. Curious Yes, as I dig deeper I'm finding neither vulpes or canine are the best candidate's, as the diastma is a little long on the fossil in question. Also, there is no sign of canine alveolae. I'm also finding that the foramina on this fossil is unique and does not match with canid, or any of the small antilope species I've been looking at. Checking your link know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Flynn Posted November 11, 2020 Author Share Posted November 11, 2020 @Shellseekerthe area you circled goes right through the jaw piece. Orange arrow indicates the hollow. Could this be a tooth or tusk socket? Addded some more pics of the fossil for those interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Flynn Posted November 11, 2020 Author Share Posted November 11, 2020 More pictures indicating some deep pits next to the tooth sockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Flynn Posted November 11, 2020 Author Share Posted November 11, 2020 Here is a diagram of a canid lower jaw. @Shellseeker has suggested that the jaw section I have is squared in orange, the green square indicates the section I originally thought I had. What do others think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahnmut Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 Difficult.the two sections look quite similar if you mirror them, single root for p1 or m3, double for p2 or m2. I do tend slightly towards the distal version (green) because to me it looks as if the sharp toothless ridge toward the narrower end was intact, fitting a diastema. If it is broken or eroded it could be the remnant of the thin ramus mandibulae that is broken of in the Canis Edwardii sample. I am 95% sure the whole you put the orange arrow through is not an alveola/tooth socket, but a foramen that contained nerves and/or bloodvessels. Most probably Foramen mentale if the green box is correct, F. mandibulare if the orange box is correct. Below are some domesticated animals, of these cattle seems closest to what I see, so a smaller artiodactyl would be my first guess -after a lot of guessing ;). Cheers, J Try to learn something about everything and everything about something Thomas Henry Huxley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Flynn Posted November 12, 2020 Author Share Posted November 12, 2020 Thanks @Mahnmut. My first thought was a small Artiodactyl, but the mentale foramen does not line up with the p1 and p2 alveolae of the partial jaw in question. The mentale foramina and alveolae of p1 and p2 do line up and seem to match mammal Carnivora, but the diastema does not match any Caniformia or Feliformia I have looked at. It almost matches Ursidae, but I find this very unlikely. Another candidate could be Suidae, which brings me back to Artiodactyl Shellseeker has suggested that I might have the ramus end of the jaw, I'm still looking into that. Thank you @Rockwood @Mahnmut @Shellseeker for all your help and input. I've learned so much in this process. Waiting on a paleontologist on cenazoic africa to get back to me. Will update here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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