Theropod tooth from Cloverly Formation, Montana

[Dinocollector]

Hello!

This tooth has been offered to me.

The id is theropod ind.

It has very small serrations...

From Cloverly Formation.

What do you think?

Thank you so much!

 

[Dinocollector]

[Troodon]

Do you have a locality where this was found.  Preservation and matrix is not typical of the Cloverly.  A tooth this size would only fit Acrocanthosaurus.  It would need a serration count to verify and a view of the mesial carina and base. 

 

[Dinocollector]

14 minutes ago, Troodon said:

Do you have a locality where this was found.  Preservation and matrix is not typical of the Cloverly.  A tooth this size would only fit Acrocanthosaurus.  It would need a serration count to verify and a view of the mesial carina and base. 

 

Hello!

Thank you!

I have these photos of the mesial carina. I can ask the owner about photos next to a ruler.

Region is Bighor Basin.

 

[Troodon]

Without an accurate density count there is no way to try to determine what it is.

Will need the following if you want to attempt an ID beyond indeterminate:

 

1)Midline count 3-5 mm wide of both carina

2) Distal count count towards the tip 3 mm wide.  

 

3) Photo of base and complete mesial carina ( not a side photo end view)

4) closeup of distal serrations 

If you have a better location in Montana would help.

 

Have a different question... the finish on the tooth is odd like its been dyed.   I've seen this with Carch teeth from the KK.  Any concerns, you know the seller. 

[Runner64]

3 hours ago, Troodon said:

Have a different question... the finish on the tooth is odd like its been dyed.   I've seen this with Carch teeth from the KK.  Any concerns, you know the seller. 

That was my initial thought when I first saw these photos.

 

Do you have a photo of cross section @Dinocollector?

[Troodon]

4 hours ago, Runner64 said:

That was my initial thought when I first saw these photos.

 

Do you have a photo of cross section @Dinocollector?

Why I asked for a photo of the base and then it may not even show it.  Acrocanthosaurus is a Carcharodontosaurid so its not a stretch.  I have a similar experience with a Carch tooth dyed to resemble Giganotosaurus from Argentina.  It looks identical in color to this tooth.

[Dinocollector]

14 hours ago, Runner64 said:

That was my initial thought when I first saw these photos.

 

Do you have a photo of cross section @Dinocollector?

 

13 hours ago, Troodon said:

Why I asked for a photo of the base and then it may not even show it.  Acrocanthosaurus is a Carcharodontosaurid so its not a stretch.  I have a similar experience with a Carch tooth dyed to resemble Giganotosaurus from Argentina.  It looks identical in color to this tooth.

Hello! Thank you so much!

These are the photos of both carine and base photos.

What do you think?

Thank you so much!

[Dinocollector]

[Dinocollector]

[Dinocollector]

[Dinocollector]

[Troodon]

Very little is published on the characteristics of these teeth from the Cloverly Fm or anywhere but it does not compare well with the one published from Arundel fm Maryland both in serration density, denticle shape and inclination.  Denticle blood grooves on the distal edge of your specimen is not noted in the publication and not present with the specimen in my collection, they are perpendicular to the axis.  So, I cannot unequivocally say its an Acrocanthosaurus tooth and believe an indet theropod is the best call.  I will also say that Cloverly teeth might be different since we know so little about them since they are very rare to be found complete.  

 

I also have a concern that the tooth locality is not Montana.  The tooth has a number of characteristics that are similar to Carch teeth from the Kem Kem including distal blood grooves, serration density and some wrinkling.   The finish like I've already said is very odd and gives one to ponder staining.  

[Runner64]

1 hour ago, Troodon said:

Very little is published on the characteristics of these teeth from the Cloverly Fm or anywhere but it does not compare well with the one published from Arundel fm Maryland both in serration density

What is this serration density suppose to be by chance?  From your experience, do Acrocanthosaurus teeth from the Trinity Group also appear to match characteristics outlined from the Arundel Formation paper?

 

I also agree that the color is quite concerning.  Appears to have a coat over the top.

[Troodon]

50 minutes ago, Runner64 said:

What is this serration density suppose to be by chance?  From your experience, do Acrocanthosaurus teeth from the Trinity Group also appear to match characteristics outlined from the Arundel Formation paper?

 

I also agree that the color is quite concerning.  Appears to have a coat over the top.

Arundel: Distal should be 11/5mm midline decreasing toward the tip mesial.  DSDI of .8 so Mesial are slightly greater.  Distal denticles perpendicular to axes . Very  Limited samples studies.

 My experience is limited to one nice Texas tooth, somewhat similar a bit more dense:  Distal 14/5 mid, 12/5 tip.  Mesial 12/5. ,  DSDI .8  Distal denticles perpendicular to axes.  It also has apical denticle dentication, contiguous keels, which is similar to Arundel.

 

[Dinocollector]

On 9/11/2020 at 7:22 PM, Runner64 said:

What is this serration density suppose to be by chance?  From your experience, do Acrocanthosaurus teeth from the Trinity Group also appear to match characteristics outlined from the Arundel Formation paper?

 

I also agree that the color is quite concerning.  Appears to have a coat over the top.

 

On 9/11/2020 at 8:03 PM, Troodon said:

Arundel: Distal should be 11/5mm midline decreasing toward the tip mesial.  DSDI of .8 so Mesial are slightly greater.  Distal denticles perpendicular to axes . Very  Limited samples studies.

 My experience is limited to one nice Texas tooth, somewhat similar a bit more dense:  Distal 14/5 mid, 12/5 tip.  Mesial 12/5. ,  DSDI .8  Distal denticles perpendicular to axes.  It also has apical denticle dentication, contiguous keels, which is similar to Arundel.

 

Thank you very much to the 2 for your help. Now I have a dilemma ... Buy the tooth and it can be a Kem Kem painted tooth or let it pass ... and if it is Acrocanthosaurus? If you both think the tooth is strange, I think I won't buy it ... As for the serrations, does it look like a Carcharodontosaurus tooth? I have only seen some Acrocanthosaurus teeth and none for sale ... these teeth have a similar color to the tooth that I have taught you (I know that it is impossible to identify by color)

 

[Troodon]

The problem you have its sometimes difficult to make definite calls off of photos and not examining it.

 The preservation of the teeth you show is very different than the one in question.  They are blue grey with a metallic sheen when the light bounces off the enamel.  The tooth in question is a dull blotchy black.  The serrations although are hard to see are more what I would expect to see in a Acro.with no blood grooves and perpendicular to axes.  I added my tooth serration photo for you to compare against.   

 

[JoeS]

hmm, it really does look painted over, so that's a big minus I would say.
What is also concerning, the base including all the matrix seems to be painted over as well.
If you were to purchase it, you could reveal the original matrix which could point you towards KemKem or not. However, it already seems to be more reddish ...