Ichthyosaur Paddle

[dhiggi]

My daughter is totally obsessed with Ichthyosaurs at the moment and top of her Christmas list is a paddle. I’ve seen full articulated paddles worth thousands so I’ve been trying my best to manage expectations. This popped up on an auction site a little closer to budget so after negotiating a little discount I have snapped it up. 
It’s from the Posidonia Shale of Holzmaden, Germany (Jurassic) and has been identified as Temnodontosaurus and while I have no reason to doubt this I’d welcome your thoughts on it.

My main query is regarding the tooth that can be seen among the paddle bones. Does the size of the tooth match the size of the (partial) paddle? i.e. are they likely to be from the same animal?

Alternatively, is it at all plausible that tooth belonged to another ichthyosaur that lost a tooth while biting off this section of paddle?

 

Thank you for looking 

[NSRhunter]

That is very interesting layout of the specimen.....

[Pterygotus]

tooth doesn't look ichthy to me but sure others will give their opinions

[dhiggi]

About the best view I can get of the tooth.

The piece also features a number of belemnites 

[Mike from North Queensland]

looks gracile for what I would expect for the ichthyosaurs in Australia but could be right for the assigned species

 

Mike

[Darbi]

2 hours ago, dhiggi said:

About the best view I can get of the tooth.

The piece also features a number of belemnites 

I think this tooth is Enchodus fang.

[jpc]

39 minutes ago, Darbi said:

I think this tooth is Enchodus fang.

Enchodus is Cretaceous.  This thing is Jurassic.  the tooth looks exactly like the Jurassic ichthy teeth from Wyoming.  But the arrangement of the bones is almost too perfect, yet not natural. 

 

I wonder.... 

[Darbi]

43 minutes ago, jpc said:

Enchodus is Cretaceous.  This thing is Jurassic.  the tooth looks exactly like the Jurassic ichthy teeth from Wyoming.  But the arrangement of the bones is almost too perfect, yet not natural. 

 

I wonder.... 

Gotcha, thanks for correcting me!

 

@dhiggi, never mind. Sorry!

[NSRhunter]

5 hours ago, jpc said:

Enchodus is Cretaceous.  This thing is Jurassic.  the tooth looks exactly like the Jurassic ichthy teeth from Wyoming.  But the arrangement of the bones is almost too perfect, yet not natural. 

 

I wonder.... 

That's what I was thinking, they are spaced out awfully even in proximity to each other. 

[dhiggi]

7 hours ago, jpc said:

Enchodus is Cretaceous.  This thing is Jurassic.  the tooth looks exactly like the Jurassic ichthy teeth from Wyoming.  But the arrangement of the bones is almost too perfect, yet not natural. 

 

I wonder.... 

Unnatural how? 
Given the relatively low value of ichthyosaur material and how common it is at Holzmaden, why would anyone go to the great lengths of creating a fake or composite? And why create a partial paddle worth a fraction of a whole one? 

[TqB]

2 hours ago, dhiggi said:

Unnatural how? 
Given the relatively low value of ichthyosaur material and how common it is at Holzmaden, why would anyone go to the great lengths of creating a fake or composite? And why create a partial paddle worth a fraction of a whole one? 

It's fine, many specimens from Holzmaden and elsewhere show a separation in the paddle bones, especially the distal ones.

I don't know if the ID is solid - paddle bones aren't generally very diagnostic.

 

Here are a couple from Holzmaden - the drawing is Stenopterygius quadriscissus. (Both from from McGowan & Motani 2003, Ichthyopterygia - the ichthyosaur bible).

 

[dhiggi]

2 hours ago, TqB said:

It's fine, many specimens from Holzmaden and elsewhere show a separation in the paddle bones, especially the distal ones.

I don't know if the ID is solid - paddle bones aren't generally very diagnostic.

 

Here are a couple from Holzmaden - the drawing is Stenopterygius quadriscissus. (Both from from McGowan & Motani 2003, Ichthyopterygia - the ichthyosaur bible).

 

Thank you once again. Is it possible to speculate that the spacing would have occurred as the body part decayed? Or is that their natural position, joined by connective tissue?

[Mahnmut]

Maybe a bit of both, but as the more distal phalanges are completely round I assume they where not in direct contact inside the living animal.

 

Best Regards, J

[TqB]

32 minutes ago, dhiggi said:

Thank you once again. Is it possible to speculate that the spacing would have occurred as the body part decayed? Or is that their natural position, joined by connective tissue?

What @Mahnmut said.

[belemniten]

I know the seller of this piece very well and I can assure you that it's original.

The tooth is a typical Ichthyosaur tooth but I don't think it's possible to say if it's from the same Ichthyosaur or not. But I guess the possibility is quite high that it's from the same one.

[dhiggi]

6 minutes ago, belemniten said:

I know the seller of this piece very well and I can assure you that it's original.

The tooth is a typical Ichthyosaur tooth but I don't think it's possible to say if it's from the same Ichthyosaur or not. But I guess the possibility is quite high that it's from the same one.

Thank you, I didn’t have any worries about it, I was just curious as to whether the tooth could be from the same creature or maybe even from a predator. 
I’m very happy with it and I can’t wait to see my daughter’s reaction when she opens it; an Ich paddle has been top of her wish list for quite some time now