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Max10

Hi everybody!

 

Last month i saw this tooth on sale and it was love at first sight :wub:

But from the beginning i understood that what it was and how it be presented are not on the same page...

Luckily i know the seller pretty well and we trust each other...so i asked info before make the purchase...He told me that his provider (directly from Morocco) told him that the tooth was a Dyrosaurus phosphaticus but that he was not confident about the ID...the moroccan provider told to my friend/seller that was the first time that he saw a totth like that and its first idea of ID was D.phosphaticus.

So provider was not sure, the seller just report the same ID given by the provider...and after hearing this story, i was even more convinced that i was on the good path...this is NOT a D.phosphaticus tooth...but for me, it was not a crocodilian tooth at all.

 

Then i started to wondering what could it be...and i have reached two possibilities:

1) Spinosauridae: like Baryonyx/Suchosaurus

2) Pliosauridae: like Liopleuridon or Simolestes

 

The specific features of the tooth (well conserved on labial side, damaged on lingual side, full carinae, intact root) are:

- 2 marked, smooth carinae

- 9 labial ridges

- less evident lingual ridges

- smooth enamel

 

Other info:

Origin: Khourigba - Morocco

Age: Maastrichtian - Upper Cretaceous (doubtful)

Lenght: 5.5cm / 2.16 inches

 

What do you think about it? Someone can recognize it? Let me know and thanks to everybody! :)

 

 

IMG_20201118_123106-min.jpg

IMG_20201118_123122-min.jpg

IMG_20201118_123138-min.jpg

IMG_20201118_123234-min.jpg

IMG_20201118_123342-min.jpg

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Fossildude19

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Troodon

Definitely not dinosaurian.  Spinosaurids are not found in the Maastrichtian of Morocco.  Looks like a Croc tooth with those two cutting edges and striations.  Could be Dryo it has those features.   LordTrilobite might be able to be more definitive.

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LordTrilobite

I agree, not dinosaurian. Much too curved for Spino too.

 

I'm not well versed enough in Dyrosaurids or Pliosaurs. But on first glance, this looks like croc to me. Otherwise very nice tooth.

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gigantoraptor

I have a tooth very similar to yours. Mine is Labelled Dyrosaurid indet. I agree this does not look like the classic species. 

 

I agree with the others that this is not Spinosaurid and not Pliosaurid. Both went extinct at the end of the Cenomanian during the Bonarelli event. Khouribga is way too young to contain fossils from either group. It's most likely a crocodile tooth, but many undescribed species remain.

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon

I agree with @gigantoraptor and the others above, in the tooth not being dinosaurian, as the only clade this tooth is reminiscent of, as stated, would be spinosauridae. Yet the root doesn't match for this to be the case, nor does the age of the deposits at Khouribga.

 

Likewise, this won't be a pliosaur tooth, since, in Morocco, know species of both polycotylids and (true) pliosaurs are restricted in time to at best the Turonian stage of the Cretaceous (primarily being found in Goulmima). In fact, the only known plesiosaurians still around by the Maastrichtian stage were of the elasmosaurian species Zarafasaura oceanis. In addition, pliosaur teeth don't have carinae. 

 

The combination of striations and carinae is very crocodilian, however. Which explains OPs initial suggestions of spinosauridae and pliosauridae, as the teeth in both the latter clades share many characteristics with those of crocodiles (due to behavioural convergence) - to the extent that the teeth of one are sometimes misidentified as those of the other... Apart from the ornamentation of the tooth crown the morphology of the root - including the slight compression - is also very akin to crocodilians.

 

As to which species, then: there are plenty to choose from in Morocco. However, I wouldn't call this Dyrosaurus sp., as the ornamentation on this tooth matches none of that species I have seen. Much rather, I'd say the tooth matches those of Elosuchus cherifiensis, which exhibit a lot of morphological and ornamental variation. Below are some examples, taken from various online vendors:

 

2770232b-3b3b-4b07-9128-fdb5e732a529.jpg.4b2fb1e24d723fcd921696337718bb75.jpglarge-elosuchus-croc-tooth-rooted-313-p.thumb.jpg.28af36b538d8b738698706339c4aa8f3.jpgs-l400.jpg.e3a218bb1bcb7fc4c06ca46d504e5180.jpg

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gigantoraptor
40 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

to which species, then: there are plenty to choose from in Morocco. However, I wouldn't call this Dyrosaurus sp., as the ornamentation on this tooth matches none of that species I have seen. Much rather, I'd say the tooth matches those of Elosuchus cherifiensis, which exhibit a lot of morphological and ornamental variation. Below are some examples, taken from various online vendors:

I think I can safely say that this tooth is not Elosuchus. Besides being a lot more robust in general, Elosuchus cherifiensis is Found it the Kem Kem beds (Cenomanian) and this tooth is from Khouribga (Maastrichtian and Eocene). I'm also not sure if that first tooth you show is Elosuchus, but I'll check that out tomorrow when I can en large the picture a bit.

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Troodon

Here is some info on Dyrosaurus teeth . 

From the paper...lots of characteristics matching your tooth in bold. 

 

Dentition:  The teeth are homodont and conical, with a cylindrical cross-section. They are long, slender, and divided into asymmetrical labial and lingual surfaces by well-developed anterior and posterior carinae. Striae are present on both sides of the crowns in the anterior part of the jaw. The tooth size decreases from front to back; the posterior teeth are shorter, slightly compressed lateromedially, and more robust than the more anterior teeth. Coronal striations are reduced or absent in the posterior teeth.

 

Screenshot_20201118-161040.thumb.jpg.58266355843df72783ee3142e8c330c4.jpg

 

A new description of the skull of Dyrosaurus phosphaticus (Thomas, 1893) (Mesoeucrocodylia: Dyrosauridae) from the Lower Eocene of North Africa Stéphane Jouve

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Troodon
2 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

Below are some examples, taken from various online vendors:

I caution everyone about using vendor photos to identify or compare teeth given the large number of discrepancies I've seen just over the last year.   Published articles (pdf's), books, direct contact with paleontologists, Forum members are some of the best sources.

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
17 minutes ago, Troodon said:

I caution everyone about using vendor photos to identify or compare teeth given the large number of discrepancies I've seen just over the last year.   Published articles (pdf's), books, direct contact with paleontologists, Forum members are the best sources.

I agree with you that in general you should not base yourself on vendor information as source data, exactly for the reasons mentioned. But here I just wanted to quickly find some samples to support my argument, rather than waiting a day for some time and proper light to take photographs of specimens in my own collection. My stating that these photographs were taken from vendors in this only serves as a kind of "reference", albeit it a rather unspecific one due to forum rules. Though it may be true that I haven't read any papers describing Elosuchus cherifiensis teeth, they match the morphological and ornamental features I've come to expect from E. cherifiensis, and, moreover, come from the Kem Kem - that is, the deposits where this species is known to occur. As such, unless someone can make an argument for why these are not Elosuchus - and I therefore can profit from a learning-moment and might need to re-evaluate part of my own collection - I don't see a problem of using these images here. What's more, my reason for inclusion here was just for sake of comparison, not as a claim of providing the answer to OP's question.

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
1 hour ago, gigantoraptor said:

I think I can safely say that this tooth is not Elosuchus. Besides being a lot more robust in general, Elosuchus cherifiensis is Found it the Kem Kem beds (Cenomanian) and this tooth is from Khouribga (Maastrichtian and Eocene). I'm also not sure if that first tooth you show is Elosuchus, but I'll check that out tomorrow when I can en large the picture a bit.

You're right, of course, that Elosuchus doesn't occur in the Khouribga, but is restricted to the Middle Cretaceous Kem Kem beds. I mainly thought of the morphology when I made that suggestion, rather than exact spatiotemporal placement. I should probably have paid more attention to that...

 

All the same, all three illustrated teeth match what I've come to expect from Elosuchus, so it'd be very interesting for me to see how you guys would classify them. I'm still trying to get the hang of identifying crocodile teeth as to species - and have seen a lot of more robust teeth online being labelled as "Elosuchus" - but thought that, unless from the Kem Kem, the robust, somewhat alligator-like teeth from Morocco are attributable to Maroccosuchus zennaroi, as illustrated below. Now, though this species, like Dyrosaurus, is Eocene in age and may therefore occur in Khouribga, that's one species I think is not a match for OP's tooth (though some teeth in this species do bear apicobasal striations up to the about two-thirds of the height of these teeth).

 

Maroccosuchus-zennaroi-Jonet-Wouters-1977-Ypresian-Ouled-Abdoun-Basin-Morocco.pngFigure 2 from Jouve, Stéphane & Bouya, Baâdi & Amaghzaz, M'barek & Meslouh, Saïd. (2014). Maroccosuchus zennaroi (Crocodylia: Tomistominae) from the Eocene of Morocco: Phylogenetic and palaeobiogeographical implications of the basalmost tomistomine

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Troodon said:

Dentition:  The teeth are homodont and conical, with a cylindrical cross-section. They are long, slender, and divided into asymmetrical labial and lingual surfaces by well-developed anterior and posterior carinae. Striae are present on both sides of the crowns in the anterior part of the jaw. The tooth size decreases from front to back; the posterior teeth are shorter, slightly compressed lateromedially, and more robust than the more anterior teeth. Coronal striations are reduced or absent in the posterior teeth.

Instead, after having read the above information and having learned anterior Dyrosaurus teeth may, in fact, bear striations, I wonder whether the tooth may indeed not simply be Dyrosaurus. OP's tooth seems slim and conical enough for it.

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon

Then, for what it's worth, as I just bumped into the auction where this tooth was up for sale this end October: here are some further pictures:

 

image.png.563d8390a0662935855537ab0fd78813.pngimage.png.8dfec9c4fc0809148ee7fdfb423d98d8.pngimage.png.00a8c7bde796087003ffbfa29351d693.png

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hemipristis

Saw this tooth and was tempted as well

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gigantoraptor
8 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

You're right, of course, that Elosuchus doesn't occur in the Khouribga, but is restricted to the Middle Cretaceous Kem Kem beds. I mainly thought of the morphology when I made that suggestion, rather than exact spatiotemporal placement. I should probably have paid more attention to that...

 

All the same, all three illustrated teeth match what I've come to expect from Elosuchus, so it'd be very interesting for me to see how you guys would classify them. I'm still trying to get the hang of identifying crocodile teeth as to species - and have seen a lot of more robust teeth online being labelled as "Elosuchus" - but thought that, unless from the Kem Kem, the robust, somewhat alligator-like teeth from Morocco are attributable to Maroccosuchus zennaroi, as illustrated below. Now, though this species, like Dyrosaurus, is Eocene in age and may therefore occur in Khouribga, that's one species I think is not a match for OP's tooth (though some teeth in this species do bear apicobasal striations up to the about two-thirds of the height of these teeth).

From the three teeth you show, the two on the right are indeed what I would ID as Elosuchus cherifiensis. The left one seems to be something else. Elosuchus normally doesn't have striations. The first tooth I would ID as some kind of Notosuchia tooth. Those often have striations. Multiple species of Notosuchia are present in the Kem Kem beds, and I'm not entirely sure if all teeth can be identified.

 

11 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

2770232b-3b3b-4b07-9128-fdb5e732a529.jpg.4b2fb1e24d723fcd921696337718bb75.jpglarge-elosuchus-croc-tooth-rooted-313-p.thumb.jpg.28af36b538d8b738698706339c4aa8f3.jpgs-l400.jpg.e3a218bb1bcb7fc4c06ca46d504e5180.jpg

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
44 minutes ago, gigantoraptor said:

Elosuchus normally doesn't have striations. The first tooth I would ID as some kind of Notosuchia tooth. Those often have striations. Multiple species of Notosuchia are present in the Kem Kem beds, and I'm not entirely sure if all teeth can be identified.

@gigantoraptor, is there any article (preferably publicly available) that describes these teeth? As I did some searching yesterday and couldn't easily find any. Yet, almost all teeth I've got identified as Elosuchus have some form of striations, no matter how minor. The middle tooth above, for instance, on closer inspection also exhibits striations:

 

5fb643f3aad7f_large-elosuchus-croc-tooth-rooted-4-313-p.jpg.84acfc51e2ab9f5c9f00f2c5bd959d95.jpg5fb643f2899fb_large-elosuchus-croc-tooth-rooted-3-313-p.jpg.cf43d514e7e180c7864f3b27890e0bbc.jpg

 

I agree that the first tooth from the ones I originally posted has more strongly pronounced striations - even approaching facets - and is therefore a tooth that I too would less likely attribute to Elosuchus (guess, I shouldn't have rushed :)). But notwithstanding, I've seen a lot of Elosuchus teeth that do have more pronounced striations, especially when the teeth are a bit smaller. Could it be an ontogenetic condition, where teeth start of having more pronounced striations in juveniles, becoming smoother as  the animal ages and replaces its teeth? Or is it just due to a heterodont condition, as seems to be the case with Dyrosaurus? How would you, for instance, classify the two below teeth (the one on the black background is about 3.5cm tall, the one on the white 2.1cm)?

 

 

Elosuchus_cherifiensis_33mm_2.thumb.JPG.a8229a5bc1ce7b1d247d50698eb69672.JPGkk009-01_1024x1024.thumb.jpg.62df97f99eb5ebec02f41927a30ea9d8.jpg

 

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gigantoraptor
12 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

@gigantoraptor, is there any article (preferably publicly available) that describes these teeth? As I did some searching yesterday and couldn't easily find any. Yet, almost all teeth I've got identified as Elosuchus have some form of striations, no matter how minor. The middle tooth above, for instance, on closer inspection also exhibits striations:

 

I agree that the first tooth from the ones I originally posted has more strongly pronounced striations - even approaching facets - and is therefore a tooth that I too would less likely attribute to Elosuchus (guess, I shouldn't have rushed :)). But notwithstanding, I've seen a lot of Elosuchus teeth that do have more pronounced striations, especially when the teeth are a bit smaller. Could it be an ontogenetic condition, where teeth start of having more pronounced striations in juveniles, becoming smoother as  the animal ages and replaces its teeth? Or is it just due to a heterodont condition, as seems to be the case with Dyrosaurus? How would you, for instance, classify the two below teeth (the one on the black background is about 3.5cm tall, the one on the white 21cm)?

You pointed out a mistake in my answer. I ment to say 'doesn't have striations this pronounced'. Elosuchus teeth often have a bit of striations, but mostly very small ones.

 

The original description of Elosuchus doesn't really describe the teeth, but it does say: 'heterodonty in relative mensurations (diameter and height) conical teeth which are posterioly shorter and not serrated (Fig. 1U–W), although newly grown teeth possibly have a false serration'. The word 'striation(s)' isn't mentioned once in the paper. Maybe newly grown teeth have beside false serrations, also some kind of striations. I've also heard multiple times that there might be multiple big crocodylomorphs in the area, and maybe even two different species of Elosuchus. You can find at least one paper on Elosuchus when you google for it's old name Thoracosaurus cherifiensis.

 

I'm still pretty convinced the tooth shown is Dyrosaurid, maybe an undescribed species.

 

Edit: Try this paper:

 

Elosuchus, a new genus of crocodile from the Lower Cretaceous of the North of Africa (2002)

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
10 minutes ago, gigantoraptor said:

You pointed out a mistake in my answer. I ment to say 'doesn't have striations this pronounced'. Elosuchus teeth often have a bit of striations, but mostly very small ones.

 

The original description of Elosuchus doesn't really describe the teeth, but it does say: 'heterodonty in relative mensurations (diameter and height) conical teeth which are posterioly shorter and not serrated (Fig. 1U–W), although newly grown teeth possibly have a false serration'. The word 'striation(s)' isn't mentioned once in the paper. Maybe newly grown teeth have beside false serrations, also some kind of striations. I've also heard multiple times that there might be multiple big crocodylomorphs in the area, and maybe even two different species of Elosuchus. You can find at least one paper on Elosuchus when you google for it's old name Thoracosaurus cherifiensis.

 

I'm still pretty convinced the tooth shown is Dyrosaurid, maybe an undescribed species.

 

Edit: Try this paper:

 

Elosuchus, a new genus of crocodile from the Lower Cretaceous of the North of Africa (2002)

Thanks for the references! Indeed, I now easily found the latter article - don't know why I missed it yesterday :s_confused: Also, the description above at least gives us the fact that Elosuchus had a heterodont dentition (and I didn't know about it's old name either) ;)

 

As to OP's tooth, I'm not sure that in the presence of others already here I'm knowledgable enough to really make a valid contribution. But, as said, I don't think Dyrosaurus, possibly "nov. sp.", would be such a stretch any more.

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Troodon

I think its matches Dyrosaurus phosphaticus quite well for the reasons I stated above from the paper

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon

It's just that when I think of Dyrosaurus phosphaticus, I think of teeth like the ones below:

 

dyrosaurus-phosphaticus.jpg.4e3f963b3988bce332b05c3a87eaf041.jpgpl_dyrosaurus_phosphaticus.thumb.jpg.78fd16998cccad46e7c0c8f572a6749f.jpgjaw-dyrosaurus-phosphaticus-89_1_f9e7f3c6598c9742ceea029a39a90b2e.thumb.jpg.40df9070daabaccd29680fdd8626b80d.jpgImage sources: online vendors and Vertébrés Fossiles: Les phosphates du Maroc: Éocène inférieur - Yprésien

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And though I now know Dyrosaurus teeth can have striations as well, it still felt like going from a near-smooth tooth to one that seems quite heavily striated as OP's - and that is, moreover, a lot more than the Dyrosaurus teeth typically encountered - seemed too much of a variation. Then again, if I look at below specimen, this to me does look like a recognizable Dyrosaurus tooth (considering my new knowledge). From there the leap seems less big.

 

5fb6515c8df50_dyrosaurus-phosphaticus(striated).thumb.jpg.0f2ac56661973e067e3f226163ae932b.jpg

 

So, I guess I'm now also convinced that OP's tooth is just Dyrosaurus phosphaticus.

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Max10

First of all, i really wanna thank all of you guys for the enormous amount of information you bring at the table.

Really thank you for the bottom of my heart. :Smiling:

I'm also happy that the topic gets a lot of interest...following the principle that a question from one could be useful for many, and i'm glad of it :)

 

12 hours ago, Troodon said:

Here is some info on Dyrosaurus teeth . 

From the paper...lots of characteristics matching your tooth in bold. 

 

Dentition:  The teeth are homodont and conical, with a cylindrical cross-section. They are long, slender, and divided into asymmetrical labial and lingual surfaces by well-developed anterior and posterior carinae. Striae are present on both sides of the crowns in the anterior part of the jaw. The tooth size decreases from front to back; the posterior teeth are shorter, slightly compressed lateromedially, and more robust than the more anterior teeth. Coronal striations are reduced or absent in the posterior teeth.

Thanks, @Troodon! This description seems to be build on my tooth...

 

1 hour ago, gigantoraptor said:

I'm still pretty convinced the tooth shown is Dyrosaurid, maybe an undescribed species.

Thanks, @gigantoraptor! I'm still undecided about it...Your evaluation and Troodon's one are the two most valid for me

 

57 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

It's just that when I think of Dyrosaurus phosphaticus, I think of teeth like the ones below

Thanks, @pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon! That was exactly my concern at the beginning...now we both know so much more about it :)

 

21 hours ago, LordTrilobite said:

I'm not well versed enough in Dyrosaurids or Pliosaurs. But on first glance, this looks like croc to me. Otherwise very nice tooth.

Thanks, @LordTrilobite! As i said, it was love at first sight with this tooth :wub:

 

 

I finally wanna thank you @Fossildude19, our admin, for tag expert people to the topic...i really appreciate it!

 

"See" you soon, guys...to next ID!

Greetings from newly lockdown Italy!

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D.N.FossilmanLithuania

I think this is not from crocodile, by me it is more plesiosaur- like :)

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gigantoraptor
1 hour ago, D.N.FossilmanLithuania said:

I think this is not from crocodile, by me it is more plesiosaur- like :)

How do you come by that ID? Only described plesiosaur there is Zarafasaura oceanis, but that species has a smooth tooth surface.

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Max10
On 19/11/2020 at 5:17 PM, D.N.FossilmanLithuania said:

I think this is not from crocodile, by me it is more plesiosaur- like :)

I'm pretty sure my tooth is not plesiosaurus...I got a Zarafasaura oceanis tooth and i can confirm it's completely smooth and inclined on its axis...

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