Glen Rose, Texas - New Dinosaur Tracks?

[LanceH]

And not to be a DebbieDowner, but sometimes things like this just end up unresolved with people hating each other. There is such a tale for the Red Gulch Dino Tracks in northern Wyoming. Two teams, two stories, two claims and no-one speaks to each other. Have you been in touch with the landowner? After all, it is his land, and he can do with it as he chooses.

Here is how this thing breaks down as I see it:

1. The land owner - He is working with Jacene to develop the land. Jacene will obviously control what appears on park signage and pamphlets.

2. The Newspaper - They know all the facts though and we shall see what they say next time they print a story aboput all this.

3. City Officials - They also know all the facts.

4. Dallas Paleo Society - I have submitted a brief report for the newsletter which will come out very soon. Otherwise I think they want no part of this.

5. Internet - Our evidence is out there for all to see.

6. Scientific Literature - Hopefully the discovery will be reported accurately.

It's weird how there could be two complete different histories of these tracks out there. I hope the People of Glen Rose, Texas will not be given an incomplete history about these tracks; if they go on the Internet, they will see a radically different history.

This whole thing has been incredibly gut-wrenching for me. I'm not enjoying all the effort I put into these tracks as far as reporting being completely flushed down the toilet.

For the record I've never asked the City, Jacene, the land owner, or the newspaper to stick OUR names on anything (that info is already out there). I've only asked that they recognize that the tracks were "(earlier) discovered and reported to the local paleo community by members of the Dallas Paleo Society."

Edited March 4, 2011 by LanceHall

[florida_fossils]

Wow-wee. My day suddenly got a little better by comparison. Give em' heck.

[LanceH]

Here is a photo composite of the trackway. The theropod (3-toe) tracks are certain but the round (sauropod) are speculative.

It will be interesting to see if the foot prints actually start in the thin clay layer that covers the rough layer seen here. If so they maybe even more defined.

Here's a satellite map of the location:

The feet are not to scale. (ha!)

Edited March 4, 2011 by LanceHall

[MikeD]

Here are a few I took last October 31, when I visited the tracks. There were several smaller tracks of the three toed variety that don't all show up well in the pictures, but you could see them pretty well with your eyes. I marked them in yellow and yours in the same red and blue for reference. There is one big one on the far right that is under a rock in your picture. It's interesting that the tracks run in lots of different directions.

[LanceH]

Wow, sure does look like a few much smaller theropod tracks in there. I didn't really notice those because of the lighting. I knew about the large hole (or track) to the far right in your pics and thought maybe that's where someone popped a track out. That hole was there in Janaury 2010 also.

This is going to be an amazing trackway when they get some of it excavated. I would not be shocked if there are dino remains also.

I just hope I can take photographs of the progress without the developer or owner throwing me out. :-(

[bear-dog]

Anyone we can e-mail to help? Just want just rewards going to the right person.

[LanceH]

The excavation begins in March.

Members of the Topeka Gem and Mineral Society will drive down here (540 miles) for excavation work from March 19 to March 26.

http://www.topekagem...g/calendar.html

I don't know if Jacene would want anyone else involved or not. As far as I know he's not asked anyone down here.

Edited March 5, 2011 by LanceHall

[MikeD]

Wow, sure does look like a few much smaller theropod tracks in there. I didn't really notice those because of the lighting. I knew about the large hole (or track) to the far right in your pics and thought maybe that's where someone popped a track out. That hole was there in Janaury 2010 also.

This is going to be an amazing trackway when they get some of it excavated. I would not be shocked if there are dino remains also.

I just hope I can take photographs of the progress without the developer or owner throwing me out. :-(

Yeah, even when you are looking at them, you have to get at the right angle to see some of them clearly. Then they just pop out. I thought the smaller tracks were cool (and unexpected). It's good to hear that they are following through with excavation. At least we know that some of them will be saved now. Should be a good show. I'll probably get through there sometime this summer and check on them then. Should be a good show. :eat popcorn:

It's a track on the far right. I'll post a better pic of it shortly.

[florida_fossils]

It is interesting to imagine that the smaller tracks may be young following the parent. Thanks for the photos!

[MikeD]

big track on the far right.

[LanceH]

Thought I would update you guys.

Well after an unfriendly phone experience (I called him) from the Glen Rose Vistor's Bureau guy I decided to extend an olive branch to Jerry Jacene. I said we go with "co-discovery" on these tracks and that I/we would prefer be only mentioned as anonymous members of Dallas Paleo Society. I ran this by the President and he didn't have a problem with it.

The plan is any future mention of the tracks history would go like "... discovered by DPS members and Paleontologist Jerry Jacene." or soemthing like that or vice-versa even. I thought this was quite reasonable and even gives Jerry some parity with the local paleo peeps.

Jerry agrees to the terms (finally) and we plan to meet at the tracks site May 15th when Dr. James O. Farlow will be there. It looked like some DPS peeps were going to come down also and we were gonna smoke the peace pipe.

Well, the Visitor's Bureau guy in the meantime send my emails criticising his latest press release and other things to the land owner Larry Smith. Then Larry tells Jerry I am banned from tracks site basically pulling the rug out from under us. Jerry then tells me I "shot my self in the foot. " and the deal is off!

So there it stands.

Edited April 14, 2011 by LanceHall

[MikeD]

Well, we all know who the real credit goes to.

[BobWill]

Kudos to Lance for keeping cool about all this! Some people would go ballistic if they were treated like this.

[dinodigger]

What a mess. Can't we all just get along??? Sigh. I say this with a heavy heart and mean no disrespect to anyone. I'm afraid the world of paleontology is becoming more preoccupied with self recognition, rather then realizing the scientific significance of a find. The scientific community fails to be a community when we succumb to the desire to be recognized when we should be working together to share a find with the world. If there is one thing I learned from Bob Bakker that really sticks, is that in light of discovery, the scientific importance of a specimen outweighs the significance of the man who found it. We don't have much time on this earth and there are a few billion years of fossils waiting for us to discover and share with the rest of the world. I believe the headline should always begin with what was found; not by whom. The science of Paleontology doesn't work that way, it can't work that way. As paleontologists young and old, amateur and professional, we strive for the education of the science; to learn. To share. To know what this crazy world looked like and to get a glimpse of what it is going to look like in the future. We can't lose sight of what we were meant to do. We can't fail to realize just how insignificant we are in the history of the world, but we CAN make a difference and share the history of the earth with everyone we know. We can and should always celebrate each others finds and thank them for their contribution to science, but in the end, what is more important to us? That's why there is a forum, is it not? I love the forum because it celebrates the fossils. And I am still in awe by those of you who continue to amaze and astound us with the incredible fossils this world reluctantly sharing with us.

CF

[trilobiteruss]

Well it's been a year I decided to update...

Since that time a "self-taught paleontologist", Jerry Jacene, came in and was given discovery credit in the newspaper. I emailed Jacene and he was less than receptive of our prior discovery. The details are reported in Deb Harper's Glen Rose blog

Sorry to say but he is sorta like that. I met him out in Montana and he had some issues with landowners and such there also. Sorta into things for his own recognition and glory...

[KansasFossilHunter]

Ummm no.

-Thr workers digging the ditch found them "first"

-You were trespassing

-Jerry only brought the attention of the public. He never claimed to "be the first to find them"

-Jerry is a great guy - you need to stop badmouthing him behind his back...

Just saying... There is another perspective to this thing.

Edited August 3, 2012 by NiobraraFossilHunter

[Auspex]

Ummm no.

-Thr workers digging the ditch found them "first"

-You were trespassing!

-Jerry only brought the attention of the public. He never claimed to "be the first to find them"

-Jerry is a great guy - you need to stop badmouthing him behind his back...

Just saying... There is another perspective to this thing.

The facts presented in this thread are accurate.

And no, Lance was not trespassing; the landowner has permitted the DPS access.

[KansasFossilHunter]

The facts presented in this thread are accurate.

And no, Lance was not trespassing; the landowner has permitted the DPS access.

Was access permitted at the time?

[Auspex]

You'd have to ask Lance, as I wasn't there, but my understanding was that everything was fine until fame and fortune was injected into the mix.

[KansasFossilHunter]

You'd have to ask Lance, as I wasn't there, but my understanding was that everything was fine until fame and fortune was injected into the mix.

hmmm I guess we'll see...

[Ramo]

Kris,

Before you accuse Lance of trespassing, you better make darn sure you have your facts straight. There are always two sides to a story.

(This isn't behind anyone's back. It's a public forum anybody can join)

Ramo

PS: If walking in a vacant lot behind a hotel is trespassing, then I guess I'm a trespasser too (Just like Jerry was when he discovered them)

Edited August 3, 2012 by Ramo

[fossiladdict]

Pretty sure that the trespassing issue in not relative to the matter at hand.

[BobWill]

Ramo is right. If anyone is operating outside public scrutiny it's not Lance. And if Jerry is such a "great guy" why doesn't he insist on giving credit where it's due?

Did the workers digging the ditch recognize what they were? I never heard about that.

I thought Jerry visited the site after hearing of it's existence. How is that "finding" it?

Edited August 4, 2012 by BobWill

[LanceH]

Ummm no.

-Thr workers digging the ditch found them "first"

-You were trespassing

-Jerry only brought the attention of the public. He never claimed to "be the first to find them"

-Jerry is a great guy - you need to stop badmouthing him behind his back...

Just saying... There is another perspective to this thing.

All false young man.

1. The ditch was excavated by late 2008, to bury service lines I am told. We saw the ditch in late 2008 and then it was only half eroded and not yet even to the track layer. The tracks were not even fully exposed until very very late 2009 or early 2010. When we saw them in late 2009 there was only one obvious theropod track the rest being covered by black silt. The excavation and refilling of the ditch was a FULL YEAR earlier. It is impossible for the workers (who dug the ditch) to have even see them at that time. You don't know what you are talking about.

2. The ditch is located along the extreme southwest corner of the property and next to the property of the hotel next door. The property is a big open area with zero fencing, zero signage, zero indication of property lines a joining the parking lot next to the Hotel. It's also has a street court that goes right into it. Stepping into a drainage ditch between properties is hardly the same as what anyone would call "trespassing." Even if Jerry would want to prosecute me (and all the other people) that looked in the ditch it wouldn't go anywhere and would be thrown out as frivelous. I could prolly counter sue being this charge is just an intimidation technique to shut up. He would also have to prosecute all those school teachers that visited the tracks as well thanks to our reporting of the track site.

3. The land owner himself, Larry Smith, gave random members of Dallas Paleo Society permission to roam all over the property in 2006 (Roz was there in fact) and even told them where to look. The owner didn't care. Larry Smith already knew there were OLDER exposed tracks on the site because he has a cut-out track in his office. Larry Smith obviously didn't care what the DPS was looking for or might have collected. In 2007 or 2008 we drove in and saw a truck about to pass by, Roz flagged him down and talked to him and he had no problem, again, to letting strangers fossil hunt. In 2009 when we found the tracks we didn't even go into the property, just the edge where that ditch is. The fact you are just parroting what Jerry told you to say just shows you are not interested in the truth. I wonder if Larry Smith EVEN KNOWS Jerry is throwing "trespassing" at people. Larry Smith sure can't pretend to be outraged since he let us and others explore before with zero regard for what they were looking for. I'm real tried of this false accusation.

3. Jerry in the GR newspaper and a Kingsport video story makes it clear he was putzing around in the ditch himself and then LATER told the Hotel manager (Nick Patel) and LATER contacted the land owner. He went to the Hotel manager to get the phone number of the land owner next door. He then told me in email he had "permission" before any of this. That's the same email where he actually tried to say our discovery was somehow invalid because of S.V.P. rules. It was later revealed to me via Tom Dill of DPS that the Hotel Manager had in fact known of the tracks BEFORE Jerry (I would assume because of my reporting to the receptionist on January 13th 2010) but that didn't stop Nick Patel from playing ignorant in the newspaper story. A new dinosaur tracksite 100 feet from your Hotel means tourism $$ straight to your pocket and you would no doubt immediately contact the land owner right? You see, all these people including the Visitor's Bureau manager who I contacted eary on, the GR newspaper editor Kathlyn Jones (close friend of VB manager's wife and also knows land owner) all would have known about a new tracksite in January 2010.

It's FUNNY how 10 months in October 2010 later Jerry suddenly drops into Glen Rose and within 2 weeks has a development deal with the land owner isn't it.?

4. Yes, Jerry doesn't actually claim to be the original discoverer so WHY does Jerry even care about the "discovery" part of this story? My friend Roger Fry related that a woman came up to the tracks during Fossilmania 2009 and said "Oh yeah, some big paleontologist from the East Coast discovered these tracks!". Clearly the early November 2010 newspaper story (written by the Editor mentioned above) made her think Jerry was the original discoverer. Roger then opened up his log book and showed her the photographs I/we took from January 24, 2010 a full 10 months before Jerry showed up.

Is this really about who & when or is it really about all the OTHER things I pointed out at the GR blog? Why again the "trespassing" charge from him and now you? When I first emalied him why did he immediately get defensive and try to destroy or nullify our much earlier and well documented discovery claim? He kick us in the groin from the beginning for NO REASON AT ALL. What kind of "professional" acts like that? What kind of "great guy" acts like that? He basically destroyed our ability to get recognized in the scientific literature even though I was the one that first docmuneted the tracks and reported them to local paleontologists seen here: http://www.northtexa...ackshistory.htm

I was trying to get SMU/TCU/ect (ie actual paleontologists) to get involved so they could do this proper. Jerry slides in 10 months later, kicks us in the groin, and now controls access to these important tracks. Now local professionals, organizations, and students get to stand in line behind some podunk "gem & mineral club" Jerry is buddies with.

Friends, I don't HAVE to make any of this up. Roz can testify to much of this as well although she chooses to stay out of it.

Edited August 4, 2012 by LanceH

[trilobiteruss]

Cope/Marsh lite...

Yes. Sad to say in my twenty years plus i did dinosaur digs out west i ended up three times in middle of similar copeMarsh like issues. Really got tired of the politics, fame seeking (to get the limited funding out there) and strong territorial personalities out there. It was probably the most important factor for me getting out of dinosaurs. I sorta got disillusioned by all these games and people taking sides against each other.