Has Anyone Used GIS and Remote Sensing to aid in fossil hunting?

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

17 hours ago, LabRatKing said:

And now you know where my office is located...

Your office is located in the river Thames next to Westminster Abbey and Big Ben? (sorry, couldn't resist! )

 

 

17 hours ago, LabRatKing said:

But as you can see digital grid data in decimal for varies greatly. You and I likely aren’t even thinking of the same system!

No, indeed not entirely. As a computer programmer, when I think of digital coordinates, I think of the decimal format, the one computers work with. This is the last format listed in your example, and the subtitled coordinates in the screenshot above (that is, 51.499400,-0.122759). This digital format can be calculated with the formulas given above and seems to be the same decimal notation ISO 6709 recommends for computer interchange (annexes F & H, two digit-notation). The other formats, from what I can see, are just different places of rounding values - i.e., e.g., fractional minutes are seconds, fractional degrees are minutes and seconds (combined), etc.. I doubt these formats would ever actually be used for data-interchange, however, and are mainly put in place for display purposes. Just to confuse you even further, though, the referenced ISO-standard describes various other notations to further conflate degrees minutes and seconds by removing the punctuation.

 

18 hours ago, LabRatKing said:

Exactly. The errors, rounding, and such result in huge issues, particularly in the middle of nowhere where the usual digital stuff doesn't work. In particular, I feel that anything that needs between 4 and ten decimal places when the GPS data is only accurate to around ten meters is just unnecessary junk that is more likely to result in significant errors.

I do think you might be confusing things a bit here, as when values are rounded into different formats, the fractions don't represent metres, but rather seconds, minutes and degrees. And as one second is 1/60 = 0.016667 minute, and one minute is 0.016667 degrees you can see both where the issue with rounding comes in, as well as how many decimal places are needed to represent this single value. And, in this case, the more decimal places, the more accurately the location can be recorded, even if those decimal places will often be truncated to a limited number for display. Now I'm not sure how minutes and metres correlate, but I'm assuming 1 minute ≠ 1 metre (moreover, I assume map projections play there role in this too), meaning the number of decimal places still significant for a degree notation will be much higher than maintaining the same precision in metres. And while you can reduce the number of decimal places required for numerical significance by converting degrees to minutes and minutes to seconds in the same way you convert metres to decimetres and then centimetres, I think it's important to keep in mind that metres measure distance, whereas degrees measure location.

 

18 hours ago, LabRatKing said:

Here's a bit more in depth about some types of coordinate systems used by GIS...

 

It gets even crazier when one includes differing map styles.

 

https://www.esri.com/arcgis-blog/products/arcgis-pro/mapping/coordinate-systems-difference/

A useful refresher and very nicely summarized! A good read

 

I also greatly appreciate the information you provided on how to start off working with a map and compass. I'll add it to my to-do-list, as I'd very much like to acquire these skills at some point. For I agree that, even in this digital world, such skills can be very useful.

[LabRatKing]

1 hour ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

Your office is located in the river Thames next to Westminster Abbey and Big Ben? (sorry, couldn't resist! )

 

 

No, indeed not entirely. As a computer programmer, when I think of digital coordinates, I think of the decimal format, the one computers work with. This is the last format listed in your example, and the subtitled coordinates in the screenshot above (that is, 51.499400,-0.122759). This digital format can be calculated with the formulas given above and seems to be the same decimal notation ISO 6709 recommends for computer interchange (annexes F & H, two digit-notation). The other formats, from what I can see, are just different places of rounding values - i.e., e.g., fractional minutes are seconds, fractional degrees are minutes and seconds (combined), etc.. I doubt these formats would ever actually be used for data-interchange, however, and are mainly put in place for display purposes. Just to confuse you even further, though, the referenced ISO-standard describes various other notations to further conflate degrees minutes and seconds by removing the punctuation.

 

I do think you might be confusing things a bit here, as when values are rounded into different formats, the fractions don't represent metres, but rather seconds, minutes and degrees. And as one second is 1/60 = 0.016667 minute, and one minute is 0.016667 degrees you can see both where the issue with rounding comes in, as well as how many decimal places are needed to represent this single value. And, in this case, the more decimal places, the more accurately the location can be recorded, even if those decimal places will often be truncated to a limited number for display. Now I'm not sure how minutes and metres correlate, but I'm assuming 1 minute ≠ 1 metre (moreover, I assume map projections play there role in this too), meaning the number of decimal places still significant for a degree notation will be much higher than maintaining the same precision in metres. And while you can reduce the number of decimal places required for numerical significance by converting degrees to minutes and minutes to seconds in the same way you convert metres to decimetres and then centimetres, I think it's important to keep in mind that metres measure distance, whereas degrees measure location.

 

A useful refresher and very nicely summarized! A good read

 

I also greatly appreciate the information you provided on how to start off working with a map and compass. I'll add it to my to-do-list, as I'd very much like to acquire these skills at some point. For I agree that, even in this digital world, such skills can be very useful.

 I wish it was as simple as conversion of units. It’s more of a lack of comparability. Particularly with scale. I’m not certain there is a direct correlation between distance and degrees as this varies with map scale and type

 

For instance, if you have grid coordinates for a site from a Map using aircraft grids (DMSx) and you punch those into a GIS map like Utah Geologic Survey interactive geologic map, you’d have to convert to DMS first otherwise you end up about 2.2 km off target. The software automatically rounds off resulting in errors. This is fine however as one needs the DMS format to navigate by compass.

 

A bit of playing around and one realizes that declination is not calculated by the software making the accuracy even lower.

 

So there is three extra steps. Drop one decimal and place and your in Juab instead of Millard with a nice 8k overland hockey through no mans land.

 

and since most of us use Google maps or Earth, it becomes even more dangerous as while Earth and ArcGIS handle at least three of the formats, again, no delineation.

 

I guess in summary, I’m no a fan of software putting people in dangerous situations.

 

and to be honest, it works differently on different continents. GLONASS is far more precise than GPS, but not as reliable.

the more remote the fossil site, the less reliable navigation software becomes.

 

with just a few very rare spots as exceptions a topo and compass will always get you home. ( gravitational and magnetic anomaly zones around volcanoes in particular)

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

19 minutes ago, LabRatKing said:

 I wish it was as simple as conversion of units. It’s more of a lack of comparability. Particularly with scale. I’m not certain there is a direct correlation between distance and degrees as this varies with map scale and type

I'm also unsure about the correlation, but I think one needs to exist as GPS, the way I understand it, works based on distance calculations to a series of satellites. As these calculations result in a position in the GCS, logically speaking a conversion needs to take place somewhere. However, the calculation may be dependent on your location on the surface of the earth, meaning the correlate may be algorithmic.

 

1 hour ago, LabRatKing said:

So there is three extra steps. Drop one decimal and place and your in Juab instead of Millard with a nice 8k overland hockey through no mans land.

That's definitely true. Due to the high number of significant decimal places and rounding, truncating a DMS in decimal-notation is very problematic. I'd therefore indeed say that this notation is less suited for human use, though computers internally are quite capable of dealing with it.

 

1 hour ago, LabRatKing said:

For instance, if you have grid coordinates for a site from a Map using aircraft grids (DMSx) and you punch those into a GIS map like Utah Geologic Survey interactive geologic map, you’d have to convert to DMS first otherwise you end up about 2.2 km off target. The software automatically rounds off resulting in errors. This is fine however as one needs the DMS format to navigate by compass.

 

A bit of playing around and one realizes that declination is not calculated by the software making the accuracy even lower.

 

and since most of us use Google maps or Earth, it becomes even more dangerous as while Earth and ArcGIS handle at least three of the formats, again, no delineation.

Now I don't have a lot of experience working with GIS and map projections, but isn't this exactly why you'd project your coordinates from the one PCS into your main one? I mean, with aircraft flying so high above the earth I'd expect height and flight trajectory to affect grid coordinates, if only, as you said, due to declination. But, also, I think an aeroplane's flight trajectory would may be not be as curved as the surface of the earth is itself, therefore requiring a different datum and thus conversion.

 

For example, the Netherlands, where I come from, is relatively flat, so that our national projection, the Rijksdriehoeksstelsel (RDS), can, in fact, just be a planar projection, pinned just below the earth at the geographic centre of our country. However, I doubt planes flying through our skies would be able to fly exactly in accordance to this projection, meaning that projection would need to take place to compute their location.

 

Still, as said, I don't have a lot of practical experience with this topic, just from classes a decade ago and working on a map-based computer product for an employer some time after that - certainly nothing much field-oriented - so I might be getting this all wrong. In any case, nothing beats actual experience

[Caverat]

On 1/11/2021 at 11:32 AM, jpc said:

Me too, on the old and grouchy thing.  But I also carry two GPSes and two sets of batteries... AND the topo map.  

 

As for GIS stuff, the closest I get is Google Earth and Google Maps.  Very useful.

As a cartographer / Photogrammetrist dating back to the mid-1960's, I still remember the quote attributed to a General - "A map with a hole in it is better than a computer (or cellphone) with a hole in it".

[LabRatKing]

1 hour ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

I'm also unsure about the correlation, but I think one needs to exist as GPS, the way I understand it, works based on distance calculations to a series of satellites. As these calculations result in a position in the GCS, logically speaking a conversion needs to take place somewhere. However, the calculation may be dependent on your location on the surface of the earth, meaning the correlate may be algorithmic.

 

That's definitely true. Due to the high number of significant decimal places and rounding, truncating a DMS in decimal-notation is very problematic. I'd therefore indeed say that this notation is less suited for human use, though computers internally are quite capable of dealing with it.

 

Now I don't have a lot of experience working with GIS and map projections, but isn't this exactly why you'd project your coordinates from the one PCS into your main one? I mean, with aircraft flying so high above the earth I'd expect height and flight trajectory to affect grid coordinates, if only, as you said, due to declination. But, also, I think an aeroplane's flight trajectory would may be not be as curved as the surface of the earth is itself, therefore requiring a different datum and thus conversion.

 

For example, the Netherlands, where I come from, is relatively flat, so that our national projection, the Rijksdriehoeksstelsel (RDS), can, in fact, just be a planar projection, pinned just below the earth at the geographic centre of our country. However, I doubt planes flying through our skies would be able to fly exactly in accordance to this projection, meaning that projection would need to take place to compute their location.

 

Still, as said, I don't have a lot of practical experience with this topic, just from classes a decade ago and working on a map-based computer product for an employer some time after that - certainly nothing much field-oriented - so I might be getting this all wrong. In any case, nothing beats actual experience

You are exactly right in your thinking. And I freely admit that I have little experience with mapping or navigation outside of North America, and parts of South America...and even then, these issues we are discussing really boil down to the machine/human gap.

 

Here is a photo of what happens when you trust multi-million dollar military satellite navigation systems over humans with actual eyes and maps and compasses:

Center: The Ship.

Port: A mix of fuel, sewage and sea water.

Starboard: The Pacific Ocean

Top: The Continent of South America, Chile to be exact.

(and unlike the official reports, it was a clear night with a nearly full moon on calm seas....I know as I was there....)

 

on the other hand, we didn't sink all the way, I got to go hiking and camping in the Atacama Desert, and a year or two later we used the wreck for target practice to make a very nice reef for fish and other critters:

 

Hence why I don't trust any computer for any sort of navigation!

[LabRatKing]

1 hour ago, Caverat said:

As a cartographer / Photogrammetrist dating back to the mid-1960's, I still remember the quote attributed to a General - "A map with a hole in it is better than a computer (or cellphone) with a hole in it".

Oh! Then you know this one ( likely a later edition)

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

@LabRatKing, looks like we come from opposite sides of the spectrum then: you a sailor, me a one-time computer programmer who worked on a map-based product to monitor marine traffic in the port of Rotterdam (ships entering and leaving)! Yet, while our systems worked based on decimal degree coordinates, we valued our pilots very highly!

 

3 hours ago, LabRatKing said:

Here is a photo of what happens when you trust multi-million dollar military satellite navigation systems over humans with actual eyes and maps and compasses:

Center: The Ship.

Port: A mix of fuel, sewage and sea water.

Starboard: The Pacific Ocean

Top: The Continent of South America, Chile to be exact.

(and unlike the official reports, it was a clear night with a nearly full moon on calm seas....I know as I was there....)

 

Hence why I don't trust any computer for any sort of navigation!

I admit that I hadn't heard about LST 1194 before you first mentioned it, and had to look it up (not that I was able to find too much of the specifics, to be honest). But I can totally see how an experience like this would make you extremely sceptical as to digital navigation! Still, those are beautiful photographs, and I guess it left you with plenty of anecdotes and stories to tell 

[LabRatKing]

1 hour ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

@LabRatKing, looks like we come from opposite sides of the spectrum then: you a sailor, me a one-time computer programmer who worked on a map-based product to monitor marine traffic in the port of Rotterdam (ships entering and leaving)! Yet, while our systems worked based on decimal degree coordinates, we valued our pilots very highly!

 

I admit that I hadn't heard about LST 1194 before you first mentioned it, and had to look it up (not that I was able to find too much of the specifics, to be honest). But I can totally see how an experience like this would make you extremely sceptical as to digital navigation! Still, those are beautiful photographs, and I guess it left you with plenty of anecdotes and stories to tell 

Those are just grabs of others photos. My camera at the time and all my film were in one of the flooded compartments! I have about a dozen hard copies I took on a disposable 110 camera somewhere around here. Somewhere hiding is a few videos that were confiscated from the crew, probably in national naval archives.

 

but all could have been prevented by reading the compass and the charts instead of the satellite GPS consoles.

[Caverat]

19 hours ago, LabRatKing said:

Oh! Then you know this one ( likely a later edition)

No, I'm not familiar with the book as I was making maps with military applications and not doing interpretation work. I "saw" a lot of the world and even got to do some of the Moon.

[LabRatKing]

4 hours ago, Caverat said:

No, I'm not familiar with the book as I was making maps with military applications and not doing interpretation work. I "saw" a lot of the world and even got to do some of the Moon.

You can find this 1943 first edition for cheap online if you are interested. It is one of my most treasured books. Found this one in a box of books the university library tossed in a dumpster back when I was a student.

[Caverat]

4 hours ago, LabRatKing said:

You can find this 1943 first edition for cheap online if you are interested. It is one of my most treasured books. Found this one in a box of books the university library tossed in a dumpster back when I was a student.

One of my treasured books is Mathematical Geography by Willis E. Johnson (1907). I treasure it because he went out of his way in his "Paths of Projectiles" appendix to prove the "utter impossibility of human beings even "even making a trip to the Moon." Otherwise, an interesting book for the time period.

[LabRatKing]

30 minutes ago, Caverat said:

One of my treasured books is Mathematical Geography by Willis E. Johnson (1907). I treasure it because he went out of his way in his "Paths of Projectiles" appendix to prove the "utter impossibility of human beings even "even making a trip to the Moon." Otherwise, an interesting book for the time period.

Excellent. I'm going to track down a copy of this! Just found a first edition in very good condition for under 20$! Hooray antique books no one cares about!

[Caverat]

6 minutes ago, LabRatKing said:

Excellent. I'm going to track down a copy of this! Just found a first edition in very good condition for under 20$! Hooray antique books no one cares about!

I found your book on online for $15. A bit of damage to the dustjacket, but described as very good condition, no underlining, etc. Shipping of $9.32 though... Sound like a decent price?

[LabRatKing]

Just now, Caverat said:

I found your book on online for $15. A bit of damage to the dustjacket, but described as very good condition, no underlining, etc. Shipping of $9.32 though... Sound like a decent price?

Very good deal! Antique books like these are generally VERY affordable as most folks , even collectors, do not really care much about them. One can often find e-book versions legally, for free, as they are long past copyright expiration. But, there is something to be said for learning from paper older than your grandparents...books such as these could technically be considered fossil ideas, if you think about it...

 

And to be honest, books about navigation and maps and compasses written before computerized navigation are truly valuable, given there is no bias and hundreds of years of knowledge on the subject that is otherwise lost these days.

 

If one is interested in map and compass navigation, another great source is vintage (Pre 1950) military training manuals...most can be had for pennies on the dollar and are specifically written so that anyone with a fourth grade education can learn difficult stuff easily.

 

Particularly when it comes to fossil hunting, map interpretation is really really useful. 

 

I have been able to reverse engineer fossil sites from photos in magazine, journal and web articles because I taught myself map interpretation. With just a bit of effort, one can match landmarks from the photo to a topo map, then using stuff for scale and shadows figure out the time of day the photo was taken, which leads to partial coarse grid coordinates and then  coarse location of the site. Thanks to the GIS based interactive geologic maps, one can identify formations and even fossil types to be found, plus have alternate sites nearby pre planned, without ever setting foot at the actual location as one can overlay geologic survey maps over topos, and even overlay and scale maps from journal articles on top of that!

 

I did this back in 2019 to find the ammonites in Cowboy Pass, Millard County, Utah by using the photos from a journal article describing these Triassic beds. True story, had ammonites in my hands 15 minutes after parking the vehicle within 20 meters of the location. And half of that time was because I wanted to see the pelecypod indicator beds described in the paper beforehand! Not bad for someone that had never set foot in that state before!

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

15 minutes ago, LabRatKing said:

Very good deal! Antique books like these are generally VERY affordable as most folks , even collectors, do not really care much about them.

Interestingly, I find the opposite is true for books on archaeology, plenty of which seem to have gotten more expensive with time. Then again, the works that have gotten more expensive are seminal works on regional archaeologies, thus have held there value.

 

17 minutes ago, LabRatKing said:

One can often find e-book versions legally, for free, as they are long past copyright expiration. But, there is something to be said for learning from paper older than your grandparents...

But I agree, I much prefer a paper book over an e-book. Much easier to memorise where you found/encountered a particularly useful titbit of information.

[LabRatKing]

44 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

Interestingly, I find the opposite is true for books on archaeology, plenty of which seem to have gotten more expensive with time. Then again, the works that have gotten more expensive are seminal works on regional archaeologies, thus have held there value.

 

Depends on the subject, particularly with vintage scientific illustration being a popular collectors item. I am slowly working on collecting the complete Hyman Treaste on The Invertebrates (of North America) of which 1st editions used to be sold for a dollar or two...once it became well know it was written and illustrated by a self taught, avocational female, the prices went up 1000%. Still have three volumes to go. Then again, this example is one that I actually need for my professional research.

 

Ironically, later editions of the books we have discussed here in paperback sell for far more than the first edition hardcover, bound tomes...I guess book collectors are a strange lot.

[Caverat]

I bought the copy of "Map Interpretation with Military Applications" for $21.25 with shipping. Thanks for the referral! One of my weaknesses in buying old books is anything by Roy Chapman Andrews, 1st editions. Today, he'd be seen as the ultra-politically incorrect individual, but I read "Under a Lucky Star" as a child and was awestruck by that overview of his life. He wrote so much, I'm still missing a few books and will probably never own the Gobi Expedition set......$$$$!

[LabRatKing]

7 minutes ago, Caverat said:

I bought the copy of "Map Interpretation with Military Applications" for $21.25 with shipping. Thanks for the referral! One of my weaknesses in buying old books is anything by Roy Chapman Andrews, 1st editions. Today, he'd be seen as the ultra-politically incorrect individual, but I read "Under a Lucky Star" as a child and was awestruck by that overview of his life. He wrote so much, I'm still missing a few books and will probably never own the Gobi Expedition set......$$$$!

Yep! 
 

I keep my Abe Books account hidden from my wife...as far as she knows I dumpster dive libraries a lot....