FF7_Yuffie Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 Hello, I'm more hopeful about this one. It looks different than the other verts that are for sale which are usually misidentified plesiosaur/pliosaur verts. Plus, while it has a couple of holes at the bottom--they are nowhere near as distinct as others. It is from Abingdon, Kimmeridge Clay. Dimensions are 6.5 x 5 x 7 Now, I haven't seen Sauropod verts listed for sale which are this shape--which half makes me think it's something else entirely. But, then again, most sauropod verts from the UK are misidentified so I can't really judge with others listed for sale. Anyway, thanks for taking a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FF7_Yuffie Posted January 16, 2021 Author Share Posted January 16, 2021 Four more pics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paleoworld-101 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 The paired foramina on the ventral surface still make me think it's plesiosaurian. 1 "In Africa, one can't help becoming caught up in the spine-chilling excitement of the hunt. Perhaps, it has something to do with a memory of a time gone by, when we were the prey, and our nights were filled with darkness..." -Eternal Enemies: Lions And Hyenas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FF7_Yuffie Posted January 17, 2021 Author Share Posted January 17, 2021 5 minutes ago, Paleoworld-101 said: The paired foramina on the ventral surface still make me think it's plesiosaurian. Cheers, I was more hopeful for this because they holes look diffrrent than other verts I posted and the vert is differently shaped than others I see---but I guess its just from a different bit of the vert column than usual ones. Thanks for having a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 6 hours ago, Paleoworld-101 said: The paired foramina on the ventral surface still make me think it's plesiosaurian. I agree, the subcentral foramina and (what appears to be) heart-shaped vertebral faces would indicate this is a plesiosaurian vertebra. These are probably not your own photographs, but for future reference, it is my understanding that the shape of the vertebral faces is an important diagnostic feature for sauropod vertebrae too. As it is, this is a nicely preserved plesiosaur vertebra - as opposed to the pliosaur vertebrae more commonly found at Abingdon - of which various genera are known from the Kimmeridge Clay. Of these, Colymbosaurus trochantericus is the one most often referred to. As a cryptoclidid it too has supracentral foramina on its cervical vertebrae. Although not easy to make out due to the angle of the photographs, placement of the rib attachments seem to indicate the vertebra being a cervical. The specimen, moreover, appears to have a foramen dorsally to the centrum. So, I'd say C. trochantericus wouldn't be a bad bet for this specimen too. 2 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FF7_Yuffie Posted January 18, 2021 Author Share Posted January 18, 2021 14 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said: I agree, the subcentral foramina and (what appears to be) heart-shaped vertebral faces would indicate this is a plesiosaurian vertebra. These are probably not your own photographs, but for future reference, it is my understanding that the shape of the vertebral faces is an important diagnostic feature for sauropod vertebrae too. As it is, this is a nicely preserved plesiosaur vertebra - as opposed to the pliosaur vertebrae more commonly found at Abingdon - of which various genera are known from the Kimmeridge Clay. Of these, Colymbosaurus trochantericus is the one most often referred to. As a cryptoclidid it too has supracentral foramina on its cervical vertebrae. Although not easy to make out due to the angle of the photographs, placement of the rib attachments seem to indicate the vertebra being a cervical. The specimen, moreover, appears to have a foramen dorsally to the centrum. So, I'd say C. trochantericus wouldn't be a bad bet for this specimen too. Wow, thanks for the info. Its cool that you can ID it to an exact species. Id consider getting this for that reason if it was Plesiosaur price. Unfortunately, with the Sauropod ID, it carries a sauropod price tag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 6 hours ago, FF7_Yuffie said: Wow, thanks for the info. Its cool that you can ID it to an exact species. Id consider getting this for that reason if it was Plesiosaur price. Unfortunately, with the Sauropod ID, it carries a sauropod price tag. No problem! A little disclaimer with the species ID I gave, though: this is my current best guestimate, as I'm not sure whether other plesiosaurian species from the locality might not also show similar features. It's just that you see a lot less of them, and I therefore have not been able to study them as I have C. trochantericus. That having been said, there are a lot of online vendors currently selling vertebrae from this latter species, so with a bit of searching you should be able to find one for a plesiosaur price that has that ID at least 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulgdls Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 I agree with pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odons comments. This is a plesiosaur cervical vertebra (see rib facets near base of the centrum). It is rather elongated compared to cryptoclidids and more like the Oxford Clay Muraenosaurus ,which had a neck as the long as the rest of the body. If you look at Benson's study I believe its closest to Spitrasaurus - see figure below. Also example in Etches collection. Kimmeridgian plesiosaur categorisation is still very much a work in progress. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 1 hour ago, paulgdls said: It is rather elongated compared to cryptoclidids and more like the Oxford Clay Muraenosaurus ,which had a neck as the long as the rest of the body. If you look at Benson's study I believe its closest to Spitrasaurus - see figure below. Hi Paul, Could this be the image you're referring to above (since your copy seems to have gone missing)? It's from Benson and Bowdler's (2014) "Anatomy of Colymbosaurus megadeirus (Reptilia, Plesiosauria) from the Kimmeridge Clay Formation of the U.K., and High Diversity Among Late Jurassic Plesiosauroids". Though unfortunately not an open-access article, the abstract mentions Colymbosaurus megadeirus, C. trochanterius, C. svalbardensis, Kimmerosaurus langhami and cf. Spitrasaurus, so I can imagine that vertebrae from these genera and species may have been illustrated for comparative purposes. Moreover, the vertebra figured under F has some similarities to the one originally posted, as well as to those in the photograph you provided - therefore presumable Spitrasaurus? In any case, I agree that the vertebra indeed seems a bit long for what's usual for C. trochantericus (some images provided below for comparison), and doesn't appear to have its typical bevelled concave vertebral faces either (see images below; another reason to require photographs of the anterior and posterior sides of plesiosaurian vertebral centra). I just wanted to point out, however, that both Muraenosaurus and Spitrasaurus are both considered cryptoclidid plesiosaurs as well, thus sharing many characteristics with Colymbosaurus sp.. As such, cryptoclidid vertebral length differs per species and may even vary between different parts of the body within a single individual, as illustrated in the last photograph of a mounted skeleton at the Naturkundemuseum Stuttgart (cervicals longer than the caudals). Colymbosaurus sp. sacral vertebra. Source: Wikipedia From: Arkhangelsky, Zverkov, Rogov, Stenshin & Baykina, E., 2019. Colymbosaurines from the Upper Jurassic of European Russia and their implication for palaeobiogeography of marine reptiles (link appears broken) Colymbosaurus sp. from the Etches Collection referred to above. Source: Twitter 2 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulgdls Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 Hi Yes, sorry about the image disappearing (re-instated). I agree with your synopsis. We now know from Steve's recent work that Kimmerosaurus and Colymbosaurus are different genera. Interesting about Muraenosaurus being considered a cryptoclidid. I see what you mean about the caudals being shorter. Paul 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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