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FL Pleistocene Tortoise vs. Tractor?


RescueMJ

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Found this fossil inland, Venice, FL. Early Pleistocene material. I believe this is perhaps tortoise shell showing spinal attachment point to vertebrae. Piece. Measures 17cm x 13cm x 5cm thick. 
 

All photos taken at 1x.  I look forward to reading your remarks. 
 

- Michael
 

 

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94C09C24-C15A-4878-8352-BF3F7B088759.jpeg

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I recently found a similar piece (upper left corner) but smaller. Lots of turtle/tortoise this hunt.  I'll be curious to get a ID from this specific shell section.

IMG_6782.thumb.JPEG.dc138868ca34f96dc0f691911f2c5f8e.JPEG

The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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Just gave the fossil a nice, gentle bath. Incredible Difference from initial post. These NEW photos should help. 

 

-Michael

OSTEODERM_DORSAL.jpg

OSTEODERM_VENTRAL.jpg

LATERAL_1.jpg

LATERAL_2.jpg

LATERAL_3.jpg

Edited by RescueMJ
Updated Photos
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On the tractor, we talkin' ' Deer, or one of those foreign jobs that are under powered to defend the weak steel ? :) 

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5 hours ago, RescueMJ said:

Confirmed by Dr. Hulbert.

 Hesperotestudo crassiscutata

Neurals.JPG.baef565c2a2ab83d4ed7ede0f9daf0be.JPG

Michael,

It is always great to get an ID. I have a very similar bone.  But mine is 1/2 the size of yours and now feel it is a neural bone from Hesperotestudo ,  but mine in Pliocene and might be a different species.  I think I have to send an email to Richard....

IMG_7052cropTxT.thumb.jpg.0909d14b53f54817a862de328a5f84fc.jpgIMG_7053.thumb.JPEG.0f59303dc0dfb8533d8433e40970b7ab.JPEG

 

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The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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2 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Neurals.JPG.baef565c2a2ab83d4ed7ede0f9daf0be.JPG

Michael,

It is always great to get an ID. I have a very similar bone.  But mine is 1/2 the size of yours and now feel it is a neural bone from Hesperotestudo ,  but mine in Pliocene and might be a different species.  I think I have to send an email to Richard....

IMG_7053.thumb.JPEG.0f59303dc0dfb8533d8433e40970b7ab.JPEG

 

Hey Jack/Michael, cool finds both of you! I'm working on my tortoise/turtle stuff also and look forward Jack to what Dr. Hulbert says about yours. I have a neural that's about 13cm wide but it doesn't show any signs of a sulcus running across it. Curious to see whether yours Jack is a juvenile or something else as you suggested. Here's a diagram of a juvenile form and shows the neural positions/shapes and it looks like the ones that have the sulcus are the 1st and 3rd that are similar to yours behind the nuchal. 

600f990627754_Figure10FossilTestudinieFloridaBullVolume7No2AuffenbergHesperotestudocrassicutatasubadult.jpg.1716b870bbfe5da8d429e5ca3820f58a.jpg

Its kind of old like me but I'm sure alot of the details are still valid although the genus has gone from Geochelone to Hesperotestudo...

BULLETIN OF THE FLORIDA STATE MUSEUM BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES Volume 7 Number 2 FOSSIL TESTUDININE TURTLES OF FLORIDA GENERA GEOCHELONE AND FLORIDEMYS Walter Auffenberg 

https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2017/03/Vol-7-No-2.pdf

 

Regards, Chris 

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1 hour ago, Plantguy said:

Here's a diagram of a juvenile form and shows the neural positions/shapes and it looks like the ones that have the sulcus are the 1st and 3rd that are similar to yours behind the nuchal. 

Chris,  I want to make sure that I am not confused (:headscratch::shakehead:).   I am assuming that what I circled in red are the neurals plus 1 nuchal, and as Richard indicates , there should be 8 neurals on most turtles/tortoise.

 

Here is an old TFF thread with 2 photos of a neural with a cow grazing in the background:

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/10377-hesperotestudo-crassicutata/

 

and look at the shapes !!! If there are 9, my shape matches 4, 5, 6.  Note that line ? groove?? cutting across 4 and 6.  I think the shape of my neural osteoderm matches #6..

What is on the other side... If #6 matches my fossil, there should be a ridge going perpendicular to the groove on the opposite side....

 

My neural osteoderm is 2 inches wide going the direction of the ridge and , if there were 8 neurals, then my shell would be slightly less than 20 inches. I wonder if a giant tortoise can be as small as 20 inches?

 

There are differences between the fossil that Richard identified for Michael (a ridge but no corresponding groove), 6.7 inches instead of 3 inches...

I  am looking forward to Richard's response...:fingerscrossed:

 

Neurals2.JPG.ceef9ab2f197b90eb19847e8c315681d.JPG

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The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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Jack, great questions. I think there is a really small neural before you get to the Suprapygal/Pygal but I may have the 7/8 in the wrong positions but I defer to the experts. I got to go to work and my numbering is sloppy...I think 3 should be a bit further left and cover the groove/sulcus in that 3rd neural.  

600ffc4c26d7a_Hesperotestudoneurals.jpg.2de563016948ea3761998a26a33c73bd.jpg

Richard and Jason up there are the experts and probably some others on the forum. I'm hoping that they can say based on the single measurement but may need more. I hope to learn more if you pose the question. I know there was a small version H.incisa and some others but I'm not going there....

Regards, Chris 

 

EDIT: Hey Jack, I havent left for work yet and since I've hijacked Michaels thread already I  was wondering what the shell looks like in cross section/suture patterns on the sides of your look like...I had some things in the tortoise pile but under closer examination I found out they were actually from one of the sea turtles. 

 

Edited by Plantguy
Added comments about looking at sutures/bone section
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Thanks for numbering them. I think I got lucky with #4. I appreciate the work so many of you do to help the amateur/hobbyist like me. 

-Michael

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4 hours ago, RescueMJ said:

Thanks for numbering them. I think I got lucky with #4. I appreciate the work so many of you do to help the amateur/hobbyist like me. 

-Michael

5 hours ago, Plantguy said:

EDIT: Hey Jack, I haven't left for work yet and since I've hijacked Michael's thread already I  was wondering what the shell looks like in cross section/suture patterns on the sides of your look like...I had some things in the tortoise pile but under closer examination I found out they were actually from one of the sea turtles. 

I think I have a #3 neural... and I was starting to believe I had a different smaller species BUT a quote for current Galapagos tortoise!!!

Quote

"... Tiny and light, the hatchlings weigh a mere 80g/2.8oz and are roughly 6cm/2.4in long. Later on, in life, their weight will increase tenfold and average around 225kg/500lb – a truly astounding gain of size and weight within a handful of years!

But I am pretty sure I have a tortoise rather that sea turtle...

Chris, let me know if you need a better photo....

IMG_7054crop.thumb.jpg.1fd4e4e83762d905d5c67408e53e5bf8.jpg

 

EDIT: Let me squeeze this into this post.  You are going to like this:

https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2017/03/bulletin-franzquitmyerlowres.pdf

All of the Plio-Pleistocene populations of Gopherusin Florida lived with elements of the extinct megafauna.Forty of the Gopherus sites include one or two extincttortoise species in the genus Hesperotestudo (4 of 5late Pliocene sites, 2 of 2 early Pleistocene sites, 5 of 5middle Pleistocene sites, and 30 of 46 late Pleistocenesites) (Table 3). Gopherus was also found in associa-tion with Hesperotestudo at Isle of Hope (Georgia),Catalpa Creek (Mississippi), and Edisto Beach (SouthCarolina).One of the values of biot

The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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Richard Hulbert responded:

Quote

At the present time, Hesperotestudo crassiscutata can rather comfortably be used as the species name for Irvingtonian and Rancholabrean large tortoises in Florida. The situation in the Blancan is less clear. There have been no detailed or comprehensive studies of the material. So it is uncertain at this time if Hesperotestudo hayi persisted from the Hemphillian into the Blancan, if H. crassiscutata actually first appeared in the Blancan, or if a third, unnamed species was present during some or all of the Blancan.

Richard

Hesperotestudo mlynarskii would be one of the candidates  for a "third, unnamed species".  This will be one of those fossils that will be identified as Hesperotestudo .indet

 

Part of our shared hobby is accepting some lack of clarity.   Jack

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The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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Hey Jack, very glad you got some more info on your piece for Dr. Hulbert! Unfortunate that you cant get to species but thats part of the game. You or Jeff or Michael or one of the other regulars are just going to have to find a complete tortoise specimen--maybe just a carapace will do insitu to wow us all and make it easier for them to write up/expand the tortoise descriptions for that age here in Florida. No finding just a single leg and some chunks of carapace like Jeff did!! LOL. I'm not asking for much. Go do it...

 

Thanks also for the Gopher tortoise info as well/link--good reference. I actually downloaded it before as we have some nests at work and I'm fascinated by them, especially when the little ones start showing up and I was also trying to figure out a couple of pieces I have! 

Continued hunting success!!

Regards, Chris 

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15 hours ago, RescueMJ said:

Thanks for numbering them. I think I got lucky with #4. I appreciate the work so many of you do to help the amateur/hobbyist like me. 

-Michael

Glad to help a bit. There are similar tortoise diagrams showing neural positions along with the other carapace elements. I'm just another amateur/hobbyist as well who dabbles in all kinds of stuff and has decided recently to start trying to figure out many of the tortoise/turtle pieces I've picked up. Ive decided that just "turtle" wasnt good enough as I'm too curious. I'm learning more on every unknown you all post. #4 neural seems likely due its shape/outline but its worn so unless Dr.Hulbert said definitely 4 I'm hesitant as I'm not good enough to say that. 

 

Continued hunting success!

Regards, Chris   

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I have a large collection of tortoise fossils but am unsure exactly where they fit and to what. Having fun also. 
 

-Michael

89DFDF63-BBCE-4AD7-88D5-CD5E93B30A36.jpeg

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I thought I found more of my Hesperotestudo crassiscutata, but after cleaning the piece, I'm not sure.  Perhaps it just isn't fossilized as well as the original find.  This piece was 4" down and within 12" of the original, confirmed piece I'm looking for feedback.

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WIN_20210128_08_07_40_Pro (2).jpg

WIN_20210128_08_34_37_Pro (2).jpg

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Hey Michael, that is another good sized chunk. Probably need to clean it up further if you can to look for more details if they exist.

Here are three pieces of Hesperotestudo (species not determined) that I have...

a neural similar to yours,

60136ebe0dbf4_Hesperotestudoneuralpanorama.thumb.jpg.1d12cbca1b95cfce5aca1afa2a2c121c.jpg

and a view of its thickness and suturing...the US quarter is 2.43cm tall/wide. 

601371f3e15f9_Hesperotestudoshellfragmentsidequarteris243cmthick.thumb.jpg.46b8976c922deefcc7a8dfd0c706d722.jpg

 

 

a posterior peripheral---back edge of the carapace

60136ee9427ed_Hesperotestudoposteriorperipheralpanorama.thumb.jpg.b56dcb11aad4998112aaaff22b0f1b5a.jpg

and an unknown chunk showing sulci/grooves. 

60136f325a02d_Hesperotestudoelementpanorama.thumb.jpg.045a89e5a65f9c022f03a6222f97c42a.jpg

Here's a couple of photos (that I got permission to share from Dr.Lomax in the UK who took them while visiting the Denver Museum of Nature and Science) to help get your juices flowing of a Hesperotestudo (species undetermined) appendage with osteoderms found out in Colorado in 1919. Remember to pick up those odd unrecognnizable looking round/ovals pebble shapes for cleaning later!!!....Take lots of photos insitu to help with possible repositioning/reassembling. 

6013749e33318_HesperotestudoOgallalaFMYumaCoLateMioceneDwPHRUEWoAIqhyn.jpg.d3a0c9be22e367768a49c15fe826380e.jpg601374adc62ae_HesperotestudofromOgallala.thumb.jpg.9c8bb05f9eff8eb993503ac3a7622619.jpg

Lastly, Jeff down your way has a similar awesome appendage find and might be also able to give you some prospecting advice. But as always Dr.Hulbert is up there to provide the best/authoritative last word...

@jcbshark 

Regards, Chris 

 

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On 1/28/2021 at 9:57 PM, Plantguy said:

Hey Michael, that is another good sized chunk. Probably need to clean it up further if you can to look for more details if they exist.

Here are three pieces of Hesperotestudo (species not determined) that I have...

a neural similar to yours,

60136ebe0dbf4_Hesperotestudoneuralpanorama.thumb.jpg.1d12cbca1b95cfce5aca1afa2a2c121c.jpg

and a view of its thickness and suturing...the US quarter is 2.43cm tall/wide. 

601371f3e15f9_Hesperotestudoshellfragmentsidequarteris243cmthick.thumb.jpg.46b8976c922deefcc7a8dfd0c706d722.jpg

 

 

a posterior peripheral---back edge of the carapace

60136ee9427ed_Hesperotestudoposteriorperipheralpanorama.thumb.jpg.b56dcb11aad4998112aaaff22b0f1b5a.jpg

and an unknown chunk showing sulci/grooves. 

60136f325a02d_Hesperotestudoelementpanorama.thumb.jpg.045a89e5a65f9c022f03a6222f97c42a.jpg

Here's a couple of photos (that I got permission to share from Dr.Lomax in the UK who took them while visiting the Denver Museum of Nature and Science) to help get your juices flowing of a Hesperotestudo (species undetermined) appendage with osteoderms found out in Colorado in 1919. Remember to pick up those odd unrecognnizable looking round/ovals pebble shapes for cleaning later!!!....Take lots of photos insitu to help with possible repositioning/reassembling. 

6013749e33318_HesperotestudoOgallalaFMYumaCoLateMioceneDwPHRUEWoAIqhyn.jpg.d3a0c9be22e367768a49c15fe826380e.jpg601374adc62ae_HesperotestudofromOgallala.thumb.jpg.9c8bb05f9eff8eb993503ac3a7622619.jpg

Lastly, Jeff down your way has a similar awesome appendage find and might be also able to give you some prospecting advice. But as always Dr.Hulbert is up there to provide the best/authoritative last word...

@jcbshark 

Regards, Chris 

 

Very, Very impressive post, Chris.  It goes way above "You find this informative" The photos of footpads and digits is something I had not seen previously. :tiphat:

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The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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Hey Jack, glad to help.

In my digging around for documentation I have run into a fair amount of stuff as I imagine you have with the early horses. Mike had asked about comparative material so I'll share more info.

 

Aside from the various individual pubs/articles on finds/locations that usually have some great photos and drawings there is Hulbert's "The Fossil Vertebrates of FLORIDA" with Chapter 6 on Reptilia I Turtles and Tortoises--I think most of us have that and it's great on all kinds of levels.

 

As you are aware the UF folks also have their fantastic online database for their vertebrate finds but I dont think its used very much but I find it absolutely fascinating--particularly when images are available.

https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/vertpaleo-search/

They have 7868 Hesperotestudo items catalogued.

Below is a screen shot of a search by genus for Hesperotestudo and images

6017511e4c4a2_UFVertebrateFossilDatabaseSearchscreen.jpg.1836f34d5521f0a685171f9e9bed9dbd.jpg

 

 

When you do a refined search that includes those records with "only results with images" you come up with 37 records as shown below. You can then drill in to each specimen..some have more than one photo..usually a couple...

6017511ccf644_UFVertebrateFossilDatabaseSearchscreenresultsforHesperotestudo.jpg.86fc87452e34494911f40ed833abfacf.jpg

but unfortunately none belong to H. crassiscutata!

 

But there's still very cool stuff in there as represented by a closeup of H. mlynarskii that Dr. Hulbert mentioned in your post...this is a pic of catalog # 18976 dorsal view of the partial carapace.  

601750fb51fbf_UFHesperotestudomylnarskiidorsalviewofpartialcarapaceUF18976.jpg.df17d2e2f3dc88c2cc9537a2e0f779bc.jpg

 

Lastly, there is a specimen of H.incisa, the "dwarf tortoise" that they have up in the UF museum on permanent display.  Here's the link to that record and what that critter looked like. 

60175135947a2_UFHesperotestudoincisaDwarfTortoisewebpage.jpg.3b77d2b0a110a79dbe2a6ee8c260f337.jpg

 

All for now....

Regards, Chris 

@RescueMJ

@Shellseeker

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19 hours ago, Plantguy said:

All for now....

Regards, Chris 

Thanks Chris,

Both for the search hints on how to use the UF Database and the photos of H. mlynarskii  and H. incisa.  I am always looking to match something I found.  In this case, the large ridge and perpendicular ditch do not seem to be on any of the examples... The ridge , of course, would be inside the carapace.

 

I am going to the UF Db and search for "Smilodon"  humerus. :fingerscrossed:

IMG_7052.thumb.JPEG.26c06827f521489d92ba3ebc9c32a807.JPEGIMG_7053.thumb.JPEG.cd1fb0ae8a6c3ef95ddb8d765306580b.JPEG

 

The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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