Shellseeker Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 I was hunting the Peace River on Wednesday and up came this bone that seems to have enough features to be recognizable. In the 1st photo, long bone coming in from right; in 2nd photo from left... Yesterday, I moved to a pre_pleistocene location, with mostly Blancan fossils. Found this one about the same size and once again with features that should be recognizable. So to start, I am just trying to determine type (Femur, Humerus, Tibia, etc). Certainly, let me know if you recognize the species, but even type of bone would give me a starting point... The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 30, 2021 Author Share Posted January 30, 2021 Adding a couple more photos of the 2nd bone... 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Cole Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 Not sure about the first, but the second kinda reminds me of an astragalus? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 30, 2021 Author Share Posted January 30, 2021 56 minutes ago, Brandy Cole said: Not sure about the first, but the second kinda reminds me of an astragalus? Thanks !!!! I started looking, There is some similarity to the astragali of Proboscideans. Gomphothere is an option at this location. Reaching out to @darrow @digit http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/21135-mammoth-astragalus-maybe/ 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 31, 2021 Author Share Posted January 31, 2021 There is a Mammoth Astragalus (3.75 x 3.5 inches) on paleodirect at approximately the same size as my bone (5 x 3.5 inches). Ken, I wonder if there are photos of the astragalus of those gomphotheres found at Montbrook. 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digit Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 5 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: Ken, I wonder if there are photos of the astragalus of those gomphotheres found at Montbrook. I'll probably get back to the warehouse next week and I'll have to remember to see if we have any astragali from the gomphotheres cataloged already. If so, I should be able to locate one and photograph it. Cheers. -Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 31, 2021 Author Share Posted January 31, 2021 33 minutes ago, digit said: I'll probably get back to the warehouse next week and I'll have to remember to see if we have any astragali from the gomphotheres cataloged already. If so, I should be able to locate one and photograph it. Thanks Ken, As you might guess, I have searched the internet and was greatly un_impressed on the availability of any Astragali in the elephant family , either modern or fossilized. We will help if we get a few excellent labeled photos of these fossils... The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digit Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 11 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: I have searched the internet and was greatly un_impressed on the availability of any Astragali in the elephant family And the internet promised so much and yet failed so miserably in the illustration of proboscidean astragali--who could have predicted this? Will attempt to remember this when I head back to the VP warehouse. Cheers. -Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrow Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 There's a 3D scan of mammoth astragalus on the University of Michigan Online Repository of Fossils... https://umorf.ummp.lsa.umich.edu/wp/wp-content/3d/viewer.html?name=B_L_AST&extension=obj You might look through the 3D scans they have of other proboscidean bones. https://umorf.ummp.lsa.umich.edu/wp/vertebrate-2/class-mammalia/#Proboscidea 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 31, 2021 Author Share Posted January 31, 2021 5 hours ago, darrow said: There's a 3D scan of mammoth astragalus on the University of Michigan Online Repository of Fossils... https://umorf.ummp.lsa.umich.edu/wp/wp-content/3d/viewer.html?name=B_L_AST&extension=obj You might look through the 3D scans they have of other proboscidean bones. https://umorf.ummp.lsa.umich.edu/wp/vertebrate-2/class-mammalia/#Proboscidea Going hunting, up early. You are a man of few words and great GREAT photos. I can see that the problem is not what is available on the internet, but in my inadequate search techniques. and.. Sloth may be a viable option... Jack The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiros Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 The first one look a proximal ephysis of an humerus. Maybe more photos can help 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrow Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 5 hours ago, Kiros said: The first one look a proximal ephysis of an humerus. Maybe more photos can help I think that's a good path to explore... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share Posted February 1, 2021 On 1/31/2021 at 7:46 AM, Kiros said: The first one look a proximal epiphysis of an humerus. Maybe more photos can help The more I looked at Humerus bones from mammals, the more I believed that you and @darrow were exactly correct. This partial humerus is slightly less than 5 inches long... not a small animal, but also not a big animal (not Rhino, not elephant family, not Sloth) and not even the normal size fossil bones I find in the Peace River (not Bison, not Horse, not Camel/Llama). The humerus bones of those animal are significantly larger. I thought that this bone was about the size of a human bone, maybe a little bigger, so I considered and looked at human, canid, felid, Tapir, and even those modern wild pigs we have all over Florida. What was I looking for.... The bottom of this photo is the proximal end of this humerus. WHAT is that tiny bone called sticking out from the side of the humerus. It seems to be missing from almost all the fossil humeri on the internet. Could it be a entepicondylar foramen ? http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/94534-bone-found-in-washington-state-creek/ The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Cole Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 An entepicondylar foramen is what it looks like to me. I thought it looked familiar from ID pictures I've seen before. If so, then you can probably narrow down your ID using the info in this link about them from @Harry Pristis http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/gallery/image/3029-mustelid-humerus/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share Posted February 1, 2021 Continue to try to find similar bones: This is a comparison photo for Humerus bones of Pleistocene large cats: C, D are Panthera onca, Jaguar; M,N Puma concolor, Florida Panther, W,X Smilodon gracilis all of which have been found in the Peace River.. However, my photo seems to best match A,B Panthera balamoides found only in Mexico. Do you ever get the feeling you are running down a rabbit hole in Alice ? 2 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Cole Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 21 hours ago, Shellseeker said: Continue to try to find similar bones: This is a comparison photo for Humerus bones of Pleistocene large cats: C, D are Panthera onca, Jaguar; M,N Puma concolor, Florida Panther, W,X Smilodon gracilis all of which have been found in the Peace River.. However, my photo seems to best match A,B Panthera balamoides found only in Mexico. Do you ever get the feeling you are running down a rabbit hole in Alice ? P looked similar to me as well, but hard to tell since the bottom right portion of your piece is missing. Smilodons were in the Peace River area, right? Edit: I meant Q, not P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share Posted February 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Brandy Cole said: Smilodons were in the Peace River area, right? The 2 smaller Smilodons were in the Peace River in the Pleistocene. Note that S. gracilis is comparable to a large male Jaguar and would have a Humerus approximately the size of a Jaguar. S. fatalis would have a significantly larger humerus, as you can note in the table. I am trying not to get too far over my skis. A S. fatalis partial humerus would be an incredible find. Any saber cat material is... I have sent a note to Richard Hulbert, Director of the Vertebrate Research Lab at University of Florida... The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiros Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 21 hours ago, Shellseeker said: Continue to try to find similar bones: This is a comparison photo for Humerus bones of Pleistocene large cats: C, D are Panthera onca, Jaguar; M,N Puma concolor, Florida Panther, W,X Smilodon gracilis all of which have been found in the Peace River.. However, my photo seems to best match A,B Panthera balamoides found only in Mexico. Do you ever get the feeling you are running down a rabbit hole in Alice ? In effect it's incredible similar! Nice idea to look for carnivore. At first as I wrote I thought it was the upper part of the humerus (the smooth part I thought it was the head). But now it definitely looks like the distal part of the humerus. And a big one to say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiros Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 The supracondilar foramen let me think as you said to a felid, did you look for cougars or maybe it's too big? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted February 2, 2021 Author Share Posted February 2, 2021 3 hours ago, Kiros said: The supracondilar foramen let me think as you said to a felid, did you look for cougars or maybe it's too big? So, I have a number of issues that are confusing me on identifying this bone. In the Peace River, we have Puma concolor, Panthera onca, Smilodon gracilis and Smilodon fatalis in order of size who might fit the identification. ALL are listed in the above table. 1) Some of the photos make it hard to determine if the bone has an entepicondylar foramen but for the moment , let us assume that all do, 2) There is a clear break in the entepicondylar foramen in Bone A, but not that I can see in any others. Is this as a result of damage or was it formed that way.. Bone A is from Panthera bolomoides, a cat that did not exist in Florida. 3) My humerus is 3.5 inches in width and 4.6 inches long. I compare that size to the 40 mm measure stick under Panthera onca, which I think is 80 mm wide or 3.2 inches. So my broken humerus is slightly larger in width than a Jaguar humerus. The Jaguar humerus is about the same size as Smilodon gracilis. The Jaguar humerus is clearly much larger than the Puma concolor humerus. So, I am pausing my speculations, waiting for experts to respond. With the help of Chris ( @Plantguy) I found this photo of a S. gracilis humerus on University of Florida Collections Database, It is smaller than my humerus in width and looks different. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted February 2, 2021 Author Share Posted February 2, 2021 From Wikipedia: Quote Panthera balamoides was described based on the distal third of a right humerus from the submerged El Pit cenote near Tulum in Quintana Roo, Mexico.[1] However, a 2019 study on Yucatan carnivorans suggested that the Panthera balamoides holotype may actually be misidentified remains of Arctotherium (a tremarctine bear), whose remains have also been found in Yucatan. If so, this would explain the unusual robustness of the bone and render Panthera balamoides an invalid species.[2] Another study on jaguar fossils also considered P. balamoides to be an ursid.[3] 9 hours ago, Shellseeker said: However, my photo seems to best match A,B Panthera balamoides found only in Mexico. Do you ever get the feeling you are running down a rabbit hole in Alice ? Yes. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Cole Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 29 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: From Wikipedia: Yes. Well that certainly puts a spin on things! According to the page by Pristis, the entepicondylar foramen is absent in bears and candids, but present in felids and amphicyonids (bear dogs). So if you don't think it fits the big cats and you want another rabbit hole, are there any bear dogs in your neighborhood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted February 2, 2021 Author Share Posted February 2, 2021 It is a possibility, but much less likely than S. fatalis. This is Borocyon robustus from the early Miocene. Early Miocene is a not impossible but rare find where I hunt..... Interesting. Compare the protrusion in the center of the distal end to the similar protrusion below: In any case, Richard Hulbert will recognize a Bear_dog humerus or not. I could say the same about @PrehistoricFlorida. 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiros Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 Bear dog, is a very nice other option! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Cole Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 9 hours ago, Shellseeker said: It is a possibility, but much less likely than S. fatalis. This is Borocyon robustus from the early Miocene. Early Miocene is a not impossible but rare find where I hunt..... Interesting. Compare the protrusion in the center of the distal end to the similar protrusion below: In any case, Richard Hulbert will recognize a Bear_dog humerus or not. I could say the same about @PrehistoricFlorida. Good luck! Let us know what you find out please. I'm very curious now. Neat find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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