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suspect mammal tooth enamel, wrong locality


Jared C

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Hey y'all

Recently I took a look around a creek in Austin hoping for some shark teeth (side note - if you have any advice for finding them in the area please either comment or send me a personal message, I've had no luck yet!)

 

The formations in the area are supposed to be cretaceous - I'm far too new to be able to differentiate their appearances, but I've heard the Dessau gets exposed. Many enormous exogyra were present.

 

One thing I did find however was a shiny orange chip with vertical wrinkling that looks suspiciously like enamel from a mammal tooth, but it has the distinctive "clink" of being fossilized. This is highly suspect, as a fossil such as that shouldn't (to my limited knowledge) be present in the area. If anyone can confirm or deny I would greatly appreciate it.

 

Also among the gravel, far away from each other and by no means associated are some mammal teeth that I found that I can't imagine being fossilized - they're too white, despite the suspicious clink they seem to have as well. My hunch is that they are just white tail deer teeth, as those are the only deer in the area. Below is the front an back of the chip. Later comes the two teeth I found in gravel

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20210209_134728.thumb.jpg.dcd8548e3d6724c9e5c447995ea70d5e.jpg

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“Not only is the universe stranger than we think, it is stranger than we can think” -Werner Heisenberg 

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Not sure on the fragment but it could be a silicate mineral. The teeth are Bovid, probably cow, maybe Bison. Take some pictures of the chewing surface with a particular focus on the stylids.

 

 

20210209_134728.jpg.5671df6dd2ee59190ea321212667de8d.jpg

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4 hours ago, Thomas.Dodson said:

Take some pictures of the chewing surface with a particular focus on the stylids.

Only one tooth has a chewing surface that's intact enough to show - the tooth on the right hand side. Here it is20210209_134733.thumb.jpg.2a3a68e4de086974742ccdeb1196fa86.jpg

“Not only is the universe stranger than we think, it is stranger than we can think” -Werner Heisenberg 

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I'm fairly certain the suspected enamel chunk is indeed mammalian enamel from the Pleistocene. It's reminiscent of mastodon enamel I've found, having smooth and rough surfaces on either side. Creeks/rivers in Texas can commonly mix-in Pleistocene fossils with Cretaceous ones. 

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"Argumentation cannot suffice for the discovery of new work, since the subtlety of Nature is greater many times than the subtlety of argument." - Carl Sagan

"I was born not knowing and have had only a little time to change that here and there." - Richard Feynman

 

Collections: Hell Creek Microsite | Hell Creek/Lance | Dinosaurs | Sharks | SquamatesPost Oak Creek | North Sulphur RiverLee Creek | Aguja | Permian | Devonian | Triassic | Harding Sandstone

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I'm thinking bison.  Here in North Texas, I sometimes find Pleistocene bison tooth, verts, and other bones just above the Cretaceous gravel layer.  During the last ice, Texas was mostly steppe grasslands so bison was very numerous.  After the ice age, grasslands retreated and most of the North, East and Central Texas became heavily wooded. Not much bison bones appear anywhere after that.  

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8 minutes ago, Creek - Don said:

 

 

Although this thread discusses size difference it doesn't mention robustness and thickness of the stylid wall which is another useful characteristic in differentiating between cow and Bison teeth. I know there's another thread where Harry Pristis posted examples backing up his personal experience of cow vs Bison stylids but I can't find it right now. I've had the same experience as him; cow stylids are generally thinner, less robust, and often fall clean off when the cementum wears away.

 

The stylid picture you posted seems more like a Bison tooth to me although I'd get exact measurements of the width and length of the crown. You should also post pictures of the other tooth's opposite side and what's left of the occlusal surface.

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1 hour ago, ThePhysicist said:

I'm fairly certain the suspected enamel chunk is indeed mammalian enamel from the Pleistocene. It's reminiscent of mastodon enamel I've found, having smooth and rough surfaces on either side. Creeks/rivers in Texas can commonly mix-in Pleistocene fossils with Cretaceous ones. 

That sounds like music to my ears, I've never found anything like that and never thought I'd find anything Pleistocene in the Austin area

“Not only is the universe stranger than we think, it is stranger than we can think” -Werner Heisenberg 

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40 minutes ago, Jared C said:
2 hours ago, ThePhysicist said:

I'm fairly certain the suspected enamel chunk is indeed mammalian enamel from the Pleistocene. It's reminiscent of mastodon enamel I've found, having smooth and rough surfaces on either side. Creeks/rivers in Texas can commonly mix-in Pleistocene fossils with Cretaceous ones. 

That sounds like music to my ears, I've never found anything like that and never thought I'd find anything Pleistocene in the Austin area

 

Another possibility might be Mammoth. Here is a broken chunk that shows the enamel bands pretty well: Please provide a clear photo of the edge of your "chip". If you click on the photo a couple of times, it should "zoom" in.

IMG_7179.thumb.JPEG.efde7c8f316d20f38bdd24ad3fa45b6e.JPEG

 

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On 2/9/2021 at 11:18 PM, Shellseeker said:

Another possibility might be Mammoth. Here is a broken chunk that shows the enamel bands pretty well: Please provide a clear photo of the edge of your "chip"

Here you go:

20210209_222254(0).thumb.jpg.94913a158b807f747218288ad9a9ca14.jpg

“Not only is the universe stranger than we think, it is stranger than we can think” -Werner Heisenberg 

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2 hours ago, Thomas.Dodson said:

You should also post pictures of the other tooth's opposite side and what's left of the occlusal surface.

Here's the underside of the tooth:

20210209_222414.thumb.jpg.4f46001382f262acfde7141700d10fa4.jpg

 

20210209_222416.thumb.jpg.7033ccf9530e6062ba40a1a8fdb09de6.jpg

“Not only is the universe stranger than we think, it is stranger than we can think” -Werner Heisenberg 

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8 hours ago, Jared C said:

Here you go:

Your chip is Mammoth tooth.

The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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15 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Your chip is Mammoth tooth.

Can you explain why it's mammoth?

"Argumentation cannot suffice for the discovery of new work, since the subtlety of Nature is greater many times than the subtlety of argument." - Carl Sagan

"I was born not knowing and have had only a little time to change that here and there." - Richard Feynman

 

Collections: Hell Creek Microsite | Hell Creek/Lance | Dinosaurs | Sharks | SquamatesPost Oak Creek | North Sulphur RiverLee Creek | Aguja | Permian | Devonian | Triassic | Harding Sandstone

Instagram: @thephysicist_tff

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22 hours ago, ThePhysicist said:

Can you explain why it's mammoth?

Excellent question !!!!

I am wondering how to answer.

First. I feel deep in my bones that this is Mammoth.  No doubt in my mind. This is mostly based on experience. My dominate "job" over the last 14 years has been hunting Florida fossils.  I have found (and frequently tossed) tens of thousands of Mammoth Fragments, just like this one.  I have also found/tossed thousands of Mastodon fragments about this size.  I do not know why ( more mammoths than mastodons, size of the respective teeth, or some other reason) Mammoth fragments dominate Mastodon fragments in Florida, but they do...

I would invite other TFF members who have hunted Florida to comment, but if you are an experienced,  knowledgeable Florida fossil hunter, you easily differentiate between Mammoth and Mastodon fragments 99% of the time.

Second,  How do I turn this into physical characteristics. 

Mammoth = flat and narrow enamel, with LOTS of straight lines !!!

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/63868-fossil-found-in-peace-river-needs-id/

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/110544-brazos-river-partial-mammoth-tooth/

image.jpeg.1b2dd89d67bfbf44b0ba4a2e7f4f2dcf.jpeg

image.png.fcbe098b8cddc6869ef7bf6c3ed57537.png

Mastodon = lots of curves and thicker enamel, and almost no straight lines

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/78049-north-sulphur-river-texas-tooth-enamel-any-ideas/

image.png.efcc5f5bbf80c8a5028f5cc8e6859759.png

 

 

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The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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