DatFossilBoy Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 Hey guys, Is this rooted spino tooth legit? The root doesn’t look attached but I’m not sure. Thanks for the imput. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 I have to admit I don't know much about spinosaurs, but this looks very crocodilian. Feel free to correct me, those who know the north Afircan materials better than I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabRatKing Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 2 hours ago, DatFossilBoy said: Hey guys, Is this rooted spino tooth legit? The root doesn’t look attached but I’m not sure. Thanks for the imput. The tooth portion is real, the rest of it is a composite sculpt. Much of the tooth is missing. As to species, I'm not a tooth guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 I'm with @jpc on this: it's real, but a crocodile tooth. Crocodiles and plesiosaurs both have these kinds of round, tapering roots, but only crocodiles regularly have carinae and striations like this (even more true when you restrict the statement to the Cretaceous of Morocco). Moreover, as far as I know, spinosaur teeth are both less laterally compressed and more slender. What's the supposed provenance? 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DatFossilBoy Posted February 21, 2021 Author Share Posted February 21, 2021 12 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said: I'm with @jpc on this: it's real, but a crocodile tooth. Crocodiles and plesiosaurs both have these kinds of round, tapering roots, but only crocodiles regularly have carinae and striations like this (even more true when you restrict the statement to the Cretaceous of Morocco). Moreover, as far as I know, spinosaur teeth are both less laterally compressed and more slender. What's the supposed provenance? It’s from Taouz Morocco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, DatFossilBoy said: It’s from Taouz Morocco. Interesting. Based on morphology, I would say the tooth is a reasonable match for Elosuchus cherifiensis (see pictures below), which would match location. The root is uncommonly white, however, and is much more reminiscent of the Maastrichtian material from the Ouled Abdoun Basin... Still, it does look like tooth and crown belong together, as much as it would be very unlikely for a tooth from the Kem Kem to have a root added from Ouled Abdoun. 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praefectus Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 Nice rooted tooth. I'm not sure about the identification. It closely resembles one of the crocodylomorph teeth in my collection, but the faceted crown makes me think there is a small chance it is spino. My Kem Kem croc tooth for comparison: 37 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said: Interesting. Based on morphology, I would say the tooth is a reasonable match for Elosuchus cherifiensis (see pictures below), which would match location. The root is uncommonly white, however, and is much more reminiscent of the Maastrichtian material from the Ouled Abdoun Basin... Still, it does look like tooth and crown belong together, as much as it would be very unlikely for a tooth from the Kem Kem to have a root added from Ouled Abdoun. I'm not so sure this is Elosuchus. I'm not great with IDing croc material, but I think Elo teeth are generally more robust than the tooth in question. Color checks out for Kem Kem. I have a spino with a similarly white root. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 If it really is a crocodylomorph tooth, may be @BellamyBlake can help out. He built up a nice collection of more common as well as unusual crocodilian tooth specimens from the Kem Kem not too long ago: 1 hour ago, Praefectus said: I'm not so sure this is Elosuchus. I'm not great with IDing croc material, but I think Elo teeth are generally more robust than the tooth in question. While I agree that Elosuchus-teeth are typically more robust, not all of them are short and stout; some Elosuchus teeth are actually comparatively slender (from personal observation this seems a juvenile condition, with it being known that various reptile species change their diets as they grow up, including crocodilians). Still, with a tooth the size of OP's, you'd expect the tip of the crown to be somewhat more blunt than it is... 1 hour ago, Praefectus said: It closely resembles one of the crocodylomorph teeth in my collection, but the faceted crown makes me think there is a small chance it is spino. Now I don't have a lot of experience with spinosaur-teeth, but know there's quite a bit of variation. Could therefore be that this tooth indeed falls within the bounds. But the Spinosaurus-teeth I've seen typically have bases much smaller than the tooth is tall, have fewer facets than this specimen, and taper much more gradually. I therefore hold that, even if this tooth turns out not to be Elosuchus - which is very well possible, as I'm not extremely well-versed in crocodile-teeth from the Kem Kem - this is still a crocodilian tooth... 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BellamyBlake Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 In my experience, and I'm far from an expert, you do get Elosuchus teeth that are slender like this one is. I've seen a few. Here's one that's more dagger-like and less robust. It was identified as Elosuchus. Here's the issue in my experience. Moroccan croc material is notoriously hard to ID definitively. There are too many similarities in many cases, especially when the differences in shapes and sizes that come with tooth position are accounted for. There's also far too much undescribed material. I learned that recently in attempting to ID a Kem Kem tooth, which couldn't be answered by the Forum, nor by the dealers I spoke to - all of whom have spent years if not decades with similar material. One even suggested it was an undescribed croc. That is to say that while this could be Elosuchus in my opinion, I couldn't say that for sure. It's also to say that the sellers who identified those slender, rooted teeth as Elosuchus could have been wrong, which just opens up another can of worms. Having said that, I would say this is croc from Kem Kem as opposed to a Spino. If this were my tooth, that's as far as I could ID it with a reasonable degree of confidence. While it does appear closer to Elosuchus to me than any other croc I've seen from the locality, I couldn't rule out other species enough to confidently say it's Elosuchus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praefectus Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 How do you know this tooth is Elosuchus? I'm far from a crocodylomorph expert, but in my opinion, it doesn't look anything like the Elosuchus material described in the scientific literature. This tooth and OP's tooth may be weird cases of ontogeny or heterodonty in Elosuchus, but I think it is more likely they came from some other croc. A lot of Kem Kem material on the market is mislabeled by sellers. I could be wrong, but it looks like Elo possessed fat, blunt teeth throughout its jaw. For reference: Elosuchus holotype (de Broin 2002) Elosuchus dentary (Ibrahim et al, 2020) Isolated pholidosaurid teeth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 Good news is that the tooth and root both look real. With only a small portion of repair on the root. So it's a very nice specimen. But I don't think this looks like it came from the Kem Kem group at all. The preservation looks more typical of the later phosphate beds. I don't think it's Elosuchus since it would be the wrong age and I think the tooth also looks too slender for it to be Elosuchus. 1 Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notidanodon Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 @gigantoraptor knows a lot about crocs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praefectus Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 21 minutes ago, LordTrilobite said: But I don't think this looks like it came from the Kem Kem group at all. The preservation looks more typical of the later phosphate beds. Why do you think this tooth is from the phosphates? Teeth with red crowns and white roots are found in the Kem Kem beds. If this was a Dyrosaur tooth from the phosphates, I'd expect it to have a thicker root and brown/yellow coloration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 44 minutes ago, LordTrilobite said: But I don't think this looks like it came from the Kem Kem group at all. The preservation looks more typical of the later phosphate beds. 10 minutes ago, Praefectus said: Why do you think this tooth is from the phosphates? Teeth with red crowns and white roots are found in the Kem Kem beds. If this was a Dyrosaur tooth from the phosphates, I'd expect it to have a thicker root and brown/yellow coloration. I agree, Olof, the root also suggested phosphate beds to me. Morphology could match Dyrosaurus sp., though I find the carinae rather pronounced for that (ridge-like, rather than the "sharp corner"-morphology) and the colour a bit too dark. That having been said, I have seen Dyrosaurus-teeth with this slightly darker colouration, so that shouldn't be an issue. Also, the root doesn't seem too thin to me. Compare to the below specimen: 1 hour ago, LordTrilobite said: I don't think it's Elosuchus since it would be the wrong age and I think the tooth also looks too slender for it to be Elosuchus. 8 hours ago, BellamyBlake said: In my experience, and I'm far from an expert, you do get Elosuchus teeth that are slender like this one is. I've seen a few. Here's one that's more dagger-like and less robust. It was identified as Elosuchus. Returning to Elosuchus just for illustrative purposes, I agree that you do get more slender specimens as well. While a lot is based on vendor-information, in absence of properly documented museum specimens that one would be able to personally inspect, said identifications does seem very consistent. Below are two more of such specimens for your consideration: 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Praefectus said: Why do you think this tooth is from the phosphates? Teeth with red crowns and white roots are found in the Kem Kem beds. If this was a Dyrosaur tooth from the phosphates, I'd expect it to have a thicker root and brown/yellow coloration. Nah, these colours are a dead ringer for phosphate beds colours. Both the phosphate beds and Kem Kem have a variety of colours. The main colours you'll see in the phosphate beds are beige and light grey. Teeth are often greyish brown to dark brown. This matches phosphate bed colours perfectly. White roots like this do indeed show up in Kem Kem. But tooth crowns are more red there. 18 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said: Returning to Elosuchus just for illustrative purposes, I agree that you do get more slender specimens as well. While a lot is based on vendor-information, in absence of properly documented museum specimens that one would be able to personally inspect, said identifications does seem very consistent. Below are two more of such specimens for your consideration: These Elosuchus examples still have a more robust tooth tip though. I don't think it matches. 1 Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 7 minutes ago, LordTrilobite said: These Elosuchus examples still have a more robust tooth tip though. I don't think it matches. True, you'd expect the tip to be more blunt. That's also what made me doubt Elosuchus as a viable option after my first post. Still, thought I'd point out the morphology of this particular subset of teeth... 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 I would lean much more that this tooth comes from the phosphate beds and the root is more typical of a crocodile and nothing close to dinosaur. So to answer the initial question its not Spinosaurus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DatFossilBoy Posted February 22, 2021 Author Share Posted February 22, 2021 Thanks you very much to everyone for their imput. It definitely is an interesting tooth and resembles a lot @Praefectus one. Croc and not spino is all I needed to know! Thanks again and regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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