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BellamyBlake

I have here a theropod tooth from I-n-Abanghaghit, Niger. It was labeled as Rugops. However, I was suspicious after obtaining it. I consulted with someone who deals in Niger material, who noted that this locality is Jurassic and thus it could not be Rugops. 

 

I read Troodon's thread on identifying Niger theropods. Per that guide and other sources, it seems that the only option would be Afrovenator based on that locality (I think I-n-Abanghaghit is synonymous with Agadez but not completely sure on that).

 

This tooth is 0.85" long. Distal serrations count is 10.2 / 5 mm. Mesial serrations are far too worn to count, I can only see traces of them. Because this appears to be a partial, I don't think posting base/height ratios would be useful. 

 

Based on that information, can an identification be confirmed? 

 

Thank you,

Bellamy

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from my experience in Niger, In Abangarit is a long ways away from Agadez.  We collected a charcarodontosaurid form there (that was the field ID; I don't know what how Sereno eventually described it).  The preservation on this one looks very much like the stuff we collected southwest of Agadez at Marandet from the formation whose name I have forgotten.  We collected Afrovenator from there.   I'm not saying it is Afrovenator, but without counting denticles etc, that is how I am leaning. 

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Runner64

Looks like teeth found at Jurassic sites in Niger. If that’s the case, take a serration density side on both sides and report back

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BellamyBlake
4 minutes ago, jpc said:

from my experience in Niger, In Abangarit is a long ways away from Agadez.  We collected a charcarodontosaurid form there (that was the field ID; I don't know what how Sereno eventually described it).  The preservation on this one looks very much like the stuff we collected southwest of Agadez at Marandet from the formation whose name I have forgotten.  We collected Afrovenator from there.   I'm not saying it is Afrovenator, but without counting denticles etc, that is how I am leaning. 

Thank you for your help. I'm wrong about I-n-Abanghaghit and Agadez being synonymous then. I can confirm that the locality noted on the label is I-n-Abanghaghit.

 

I'll try to count serrations on the mesial side but it's very hard as they're mostly traces left. 

 

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BellamyBlake
3 minutes ago, Runner64 said:

Looks like teeth found at Jurassic sites in Niger. If that’s the case, take a serration density side on both sides and report back

The locality noted on the label indeed seems to be Jurassic.

 

Serration count on the distal side is 10.2 / 5 mm. Serrations on mesial are very worn but I'll do what I can, only traces left on that side. 

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What sites in Niger are you calling Jurassic?  When I was there we collected in the cretaceous, but i admit, I have not kept up.  Are the classic sites around Agadez now considered Jurassic?

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Troodon

The Jurassic Tiouraren Formation is typically around Agadez so is that town in the same deposit

 

Edit: confirmed it is

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BellamyBlake
51 minutes ago, jpc said:

What sites in Niger are you calling Jurassic?  When I was there we collected in the cretaceous, but i admit, I have not kept up.  Are the classic sites around Agadez now considered Jurassic?

 

I'm noting that I-n-Abanghaghit is Jurassic. Admittedly, I don't have a lot of knowledge about this. I spoke with @Haravex who noted that it's Jurassic.

 

2 minutes ago, Troodon said:

The Jurassic Tiouraren Formation is typically around Agadez so is that town in the same deposit?

 

To be frank, I don't even know if I-n-Abanghaghit is a town. I found a few references to it as a geographic place but no articles on it as a municipality of any sort. @Haravex noted that it's Jurassic when I spoke with him. In reality, Google Maps shows a place called "I-n-Abanghaghit" 200 miles northwest of Agadez, but it still doesn't note that this is a place where people live. 

 

There's one website that says it's a source for drinking water:

 

http://www.geonames.org/search.html?q=I-n-Abanghaghit&country=NE

 

And there's a website about local weather that notes the weather for "I-n-Abanghaghit (Agadez)," appearing the synonymize the two. 

 

Nevertheless, for these reasons alongside Haravex's statement, I've viewed I-n-Abanghaghit as Jurassic.

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BellamyBlake

I recounted the serrations on both sides. The mesial side was hard because it's extremely worn.

 

@Troodon @jpc @Runner64

 

It was like tracing what used to exist. The blue line is 5 mm. I could see what looked like traces of serrations on the red lines. Green lines are where I assumed there would have been serrations based on the distance between the ones I could sort of see.

 

Based on this:

 

Distal: 11 serrations / 5 mm

Mesial: 12 serrations / 5 mm (very tentative)

 

It's the best I could do, but maybe someone sees something I don't.

 

Best,

Bellamy

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Troodon

I did confirm that Aderbissinat community has Tiouraren Formation deposits so the tooth is most likely Jurassic.   Serration density is only one characteristic needed to definitively determine the ID.  Yes it could be Afrovenator but there is no way to confirm its even a meglosaurid.    Martinez et al. theropod tooth paper on this formation describes a number of possible Afrovenators, Meglosaurids and Ceratosurids teeth that could not be confirmed to a family or genus level.    Here we have a partial tooth so although it might be Afrovenator there is not enough evidence to support that assignment.

 

 

 

 

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Troodon
2 hours ago, jpc said:

What sites in Niger are you calling Jurassic?  When I was there we collected in the cretaceous, but i admit, I have not kept up.  Are the classic sites around Agadez now considered Jurassic?

Yes its Jurassic, possibly Bathonian.  After Sereno et al.  described Afrovenator and believed it to be Cretaceous a study was done on the sediments and the verdict was mid Jurassic.   Hey stay tuned it can change again...little is known of the deposit.

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Zenmaster6

Nigersaurus is about all I know from Niger  :Jumping:

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BellamyBlake
30 minutes ago, Troodon said:

I did confirm that Aderbissinat community has Tiouraren Formation deposits so the tooth is most likely Jurassic.   Serration density is only one characteristic needed to definitively determine the ID.  Yes it could be Afrovenator but there is no way to confirm its even a meglosaurid.    Martinez et al. theropod tooth paper on this formation describes a number of possible Afrovenators, Meglosaurids and Ceratosurids teeth that could not be confirmed to a family or genus level.    Here we have a partial tooth so although it might be Afrovenator there is not enough evidence to support that assignment.

 

 

 

 

Thank you, would the most precise identification be Theropod indeterminate then?

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Troodon

That's what I would say, others might not agree.  

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Haravex
31 minutes ago, Troodon said:

I did confirm that Aderbissinat community has Tiouraren Formation deposits so the tooth is most likely Jurassic.   Serration density is only one characteristic needed to definitively determine the ID.  Yes it could be Afrovenator but there is no way to confirm its even a meglosaurid.    Martinez et al. theropod tooth paper on this formation describes a number of possible Afrovenators, Meglosaurids and Ceratosurids teeth that could not be confirmed to a family or genus level.    Here we have a partial tooth so although it might be Afrovenator there is not enough evidence to support that assignment.

 

 

 

 

If we look at the Jurassic formation of for example Portugal and Tanzania we see multiple (12) sauropods and (6) theropods, so I imagine to assign all theropod teeth (which sellers do far too frequently) to the only described species if a far stretch. Also there is a Jurassic formation in the south that contains at least identical fauna as the Tiourarén formation.

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In Abangaharit is indeed a well.  We called it 'camel water' cuz it came out of the well full of hair.  "In Abangaharit Water" became the word used to described water that was just awful.  When we collected at In Abangaharit, we stopped in a village to speak with the elders about our presence and our project.  I would have to look at my notes from 1993 to see what village it was and if it was actually called In Abangaharit,or if we stopped in Aderbissinat.  

 

I seem to recall now that Oliver Rahut et al proposed the Jurassic date for the Ihrazer Shale.  

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Pemphix

Thanks for this

 

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