Miocene Horses

[Shellseeker]

I was answering questions on Horse tooth identification in the Netherlands, and thought of something that I really did not know. 

I learned the conventional wisdom.  Horses started in South America, migrated across a land bridge to North America, and eventually crossed the land bridge  near what is today the Bering Strait, into the rest of the world. Horses went extinct in the Americas.  In the 1500s, Spaniards reintroduced horses into the Americas.

 

So, How far back in the fossil record do Horses go outside of the Americas? I have no idea, beyond thinking we had Equus in Florida 100000 years ago.

[minnbuckeye]

Very interesting thought to which I have no answer!

[Thecosmilia Trichitoma]

I know about early fossil horses that were found in the Messel shale in Germany.

[ParkerPaleo]

I was thinking there was some recent research suggesting Perrisodactyls originated in India in the Eocene.  Once India joined into Asia they radiated outward across Asia, Europe and North America.  

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms6570"

 

The earliest horse I am aware of is Hyracotherium/Eohippus, ~55 MYA, and it was in both Europe and North America.  Since it is so wide spread at origin, it's my guess that they probably originated in India and the first horse is still undiscovered or we don't understand the relationship with Cambaytheres.

 

 

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be along to correct me though. 

[Shellseeker]

 

3 hours ago, Thecosmilia Trichitoma said:

I know about early fossil horses that were found in the Messel shale in Germany.

 

3 hours ago, ParkerPaleo said:

I was thinking there was some recent research suggesting Perrisodactyls originated in India in the Eocene.  Once India joined into Asia they radiated outward across Asia, Europe and North America. 

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms6570"

The earliest horse I am aware of is Hyracotherium/Eohippus, ~55 MYA, and it was in both Europe and North America.  Since it is so wide spread at origin, it's my guess that they probably originated in India and the first horse is still undiscovered or we don't understand the relationship with Cambaytheres.

 

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be along to correct me though. 

 

First of all, thanks for your responses. .  You have opened new possibilities and new horizons for me to explore.

 

I am gobsmacked !!!

 

I am thinking about Miohippus, as an example

Quote

Miohippus (meaning "small horse") was a genus of prehistoric horse existing longer than most Equidae. Miohippus lived in what is now North America during the late Eocene to late Oligocene. Miohippus was a horse of the Oligocene. According to the Florida Museum of Natural History, Othniel Charles Marsh first believed Miohippus lived during the Miocene and thus named the genus using this incorrect conclusion. More recent research provides evidence that Miohippus actually lived during the Paleogene period.

Miohippus species are commonly referred to as the three-toed horses.^{[citation needed]} Their range was from Alberta, Canada to Florida to California.

 

Could this imply that the chart above is only true for the Americas? There might have been parallel evolution of horses in other continents. I have a hundred pre_Equus teeth, from many different Genus and Species all from the Americas. Is there a fossil trade in three-toed horses found in Europe and/or India?

I am not sure what questions to ask, but this  is exciting.

 

I found this link:

https://thisviewoflife.com/pregnant-horse-uncovered-in-german-fossil-pit/

Now I am on the trail of Eurohippus.

I am beginning to think the answer to my chart question is YES..

 

[oilshale]

3 hours ago, Thecosmilia Trichitoma said:

I know about early fossil horses that were found in the Messel shale in Germany.

Eurohippus messelensis (Propalaeotherium messelense):

 

[Shellseeker]

I have just found this paper.  It is dated but likely interesting reading and directly related to the topic..

http://www.equinestudies.org/evolution_horse_2008/elsevier_horse_evolution_2008_pdf1.pdf

[Svetlana]

Hello
The topic is very interesting.
Shellseeker, sorry interrupting on your topic, but i have a question: I recently exhibited this bone for discussion and definition. And although I found her in the same place where I collect a petrified tree of the Paleogene age, I understand that she is still younger. I do not know the size of the bones of modern horses, but it seems to me that this bone is large enough even for modern horses. But in the Paleogene, the relatives of horses were, on the contrary, very small, and began to increase in size only in the Miocene, right?

[Shellseeker]

Svetlana, 

No problem at all. Like you I am always curious and want to know identify of everything I find.

This is an Equus .sp cannon bone ( Metacarpal) in the gallery of @Harry Pristis.  Yours looks very much the same, but at 34 cm , yours is much longer. Your bones seems to be petrified/agatized,  yes?

If you look at the chart above, Dinohippus was a pretty large horse 12 mya, and had teeth that many can not distinguish from Equus .sp. In my Florida hunting grounds there were very small horses 13-3 mya called Nannippus.   Hope all this helps you to identify your find. 

 

[Shellseeker]

3 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

I have just found this paper.  It is dated but likely interesting reading and directly related to the topic..

http://www.equinestudies.org/evolution_horse_2008/elsevier_horse_evolution_2008_pdf1.pdf

This is a GREAT paper , if you want to understand Horse evolution , and the changes in those individual horse species over time..

So, lets try the questions I posed!!!

9 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

So, How far back in the fossil record do Horses go outside of the Americas? I have no idea, beyond thinking we had Equus in Florida 100000 years ago.

It goes back to the same time frame 50-55 myas ago in both the Americas and Europe_Asia to a "Dawn Horse", Eohippus.

 

5 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Could this imply that the chart above is only true for the Americas?

No, the charts from Eohippus to Equus are similar with intermediate Genus/Species named differently by humans , and some steps skipped based on locality.

5 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

There might have been parallel evolution of horses in other continents.

There were, The paper mentions

Quote

The genus Hipparion was the next, in the early Miocene, to migrate from North America to Eurasia via Beringia. Remains of many species of Hipparion are found in great abundance all over Eurasia, from China to Spain (Bernor and Hussain, 1985; Crusafont and Sondaar, 1971;Falconer and Cautley, 1845-1849; Forsten, 1968;Hussain, 1971; Koenigswald, 1970; Matthew,1929; MacFadden, 1980; Pirlot, 1956; Sefve,1927; Woodburne, MacFadden, and Skinner,1981). The genus persisted longest in Africa, finally dying out there in the early Pleistocene, the last three-toed horses in the world (Patterson and Pascual, 1972; Churcher and Richardson, 1978).

The paper talks about MANY !!!! cross fertilizations between the old world and new world Horses,  and the "bridge" worked both ways.  A species that went extinct on one side "might" be repopulated by the same species crossing from the other side.   It was really Complex,  I am going to have to re_read that paper many times, before I form opinions, and that is good.

 

So, I am down to one question.  I must be looking in the wrong places.  WHY do I not see a bunch of Hipparion horse teeth from all those Eurasia countries up for sale??    Jack

[ParkerPaleo]

I don't think that chart is wholly North America (Paleotherium is certainly European) but the history of discoveries in Horse evolution does begin in a lot of ways in North America and the chart reflects that.  Horse evolution was used as an early example of Darwinian evolution with the famous series of feet showing the reduction in toe numbers because the fossil record here was so fantastic.  I think we now know that evolution was more complex than that amongst horses but for it's time it was the extent of scientific knowledge.  There was a good history of this in a podcast I recently found.

 

Common Descent Podcast

 

I'd recommend more than just this episode.  The gentlemen who put this show together did a great job on a large number of topics.

[Svetlana]

18 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Svetlana, 

No problem at all. Like you I am always curious and want to know identify of everything I find.

This is an Equus .sp cannon bone ( Metacarpal) in the gallery of @Harry Pristis.  Yours looks very much the same, but at 34 cm , yours is much longer. Your bones seems to be petrified/agatized,  yes?

If you look at the chart above, Dinohippus was a pretty large horse 12 mya, and had teeth that many can not distinguish from Equus .sp. In my Florida hunting grounds there were very small horses 13-3 mya called Nannippus.   Hope all this helps you to identify your find. 

 

Hello!

Thank you. I will continue to study this question.