FF7_Yuffie Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Hello, any thoughts on this? Sold as UK Sauropod from Abingdon. I've struck out so much with these, but fingers crossed ... 11 x 12 x 5.5cm Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FF7_Yuffie Posted March 12, 2021 Author Share Posted March 12, 2021 Hi, a second one. This one measures 10 x 9 x 6.3. Same location, sauropod. Many thanks as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DE&i Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Both Pliosaur in my opinion. 2 Regards.....D&E&i The only certainty with fossil hunting is the uncertainty. https://lnk.bio/Darren.Withers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 I agree to, to some degree. I can say plesiosaur. Wheter it is elasmosaur or pliosaur, I will default to others who know better (see post immediately above this). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 I actually saw a Cetiosaurus-vertebra from Abingdon being offered by an American dealer recently. However, as the ventral side of the vertebra was missing, there was not enough information to positively ID it. And with this material: when in doubt, it's a pliosaur... So too here. I find it difficult to ID either of these vertebrae as either sauropod or pliosaur, as I'm only familiar with the latter, and the diagnostic features of pliosaur vertebrae - paired subcentral foramina and a mamilla or clear notochordal pit - are difficult to read in these specimens - though they do seem to be there. The pit can't be seen on the one side of the first vertebra, but may be covered by adhering matrix on the other, while the other specimen seems to have a slight depression that could be the notochordal pit in the middle of its vertebral centrum. As to the subcentral foramina, one can clearly be seen in the first specimen, with it being possible to imagine another equidistant the midline of the vertebra, either still covered in matrix or damaged and expanded. The second vertebra clearly has a pair of subcentral foramina on its left side, though it's unclear whether these are matched on the other side of the vertebral midline. One last thing that looks kind of off to me here (when considering these specimens as pliosaurian) are the articulation surfaces for the neutral arches. In my experience these normally are more flat and stretch the length of the vertebra, which is not the case here. So, though I'm inclined to still say pliosaur, the fact that so many things are slightly off might be a positive indication for these beings sauropod specimens after all (although I believe these would be more square looking in axial outline)... Let's see what @paulgdls and @Welsh Wizard have to say. 2 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 Not much is published. A bit of similarity to your top one but its hard to be certain. Second one looks marine. The supplier needs to provide you comparative data to support his claim? He's the one that needs to convince you and not with just words. Paul Upchurch & John Martin 2003 paper 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 One strategy often applied by vendors is: "if it doesn't walk like a pliosaur or quack like a pliosaur, it must be Cetiosaur". Which is simply not true. It may still be a pliosaur sitting very quietly on its nest 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh Wizard Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 Morning I’ve come to the conclusion that the bulk of these vertebrae for sale are pliosaur. I’ve purchased a few over the years as they are impressive and look good displayed. I agree with @Troodon that there is little published information available but if you do a comparison with sauropods vertebrae they just don’t look the same. With that in mind, you do get sauropod and other dinosaur remains in the Kimmeridge Clay of the UK. Not sure I’m much help but it’s an interesting subject. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FF7_Yuffie Posted March 13, 2021 Author Share Posted March 13, 2021 Thanks for the help everyone. The second one, I'd have got if the price was lower---even if misidentified as a Pliosaur, it's a really good example of one I think and a nice size. Unfortunately it's carrying a Sauropod vertebra pricetag. I'll look a bit more into the top, since there's a couple of doubts about--see if I can get info from the seller, or an email of someone to take a look. Thanks for the help, everyone. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh Wizard Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 Here’s an interesting link with some great pictures: http://www.elywildspace.org.uk/dinosaurs.html 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMert Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 Strangely, "chez nous" ( I really miss that phrase in English) it was the other way round, a couple of verts, for a long time believed to be pliosaurian and even published in this capacity in a marine reptiles review, were discovered to belong to a sauropod. I held them in hand, they are really big and heavy, felt like twice the size of any pliosaurian ones I've seen 1 My sites & reports Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Welsh Wizard said: Here’s an interesting link with some great pictures: http://www.elywildspace.org.uk/dinosaurs.html Thanks! I had totally forgotten about this site! 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FF7_Yuffie Posted March 13, 2021 Author Share Posted March 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Welsh Wizard said: Here’s an interesting link with some great pictures: http://www.elywildspace.org.uk/dinosaurs.html Thanks for the link. They're some good photos. I see quite a lot sold from Abingdon listed, so will be a good page to refer to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 A paper that describes Cetiosaurus is listed below. Unfortunately the images provided are not the best for vertebrae ID but may be of some help. I share those images for those that don't have access to the paper. The anatomy and taxonomy of Cetiosaurus (Saurischia, Sauropoda) from the Middle Jurassic of England. Paul Upchurch & John Martin, 2003 Photos to compare against. Museum photo SV-POW photo 3/2009 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 (Posts removed) Please remember, no seller links allowed. 2 The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjaak Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 Ok sorry and sorry to break into this topic. Hope it’s allowed (Please remove if not) but I think it fits with the discussion. This vertebra is advertised as a UK cetiosaurus but I think it’s pliosaurus as well? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 On 3/13/2021 at 10:15 PM, sjaak said: Ok sorry and sorry to break into this topic. Hope it’s allowed (Plessers remove if not) but I think it fits with the discussion. This vertebra is advertised as a UK cetiosaurus but I think it’s pliosaurus as well? Don't worry too much about it, Niels. Forum rules stipulate we should let threads flow in any direction they want, so as not to block interesting developments in a discussion. And your question fits in with the topic perfectly But, yes, unfortunately there is too little information - and not much of a suggestion at that - in these photographs to determine whether this might be a sauropod vertebra. That is, it looks plesiosaurian to me. Interestingly, I don't think it's without reason that the seller themselves even has this categorized under "marine reptile" rather than "dinosaur" 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjaak Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 8 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said: Don't worry too much about it, Niels. Forum rules stipulate we should let threads flow in any direction they want, so as not to block interesting developments in a discussion. And your question fits in with the topic perfectly But, yes, unfortunately there is too little information - and not much of a suggestion at that - in these photographs to determine whether this might be a sauropod vertebra. That is, it looks pliosaurian to me. Interestingly, I don't think it's without reason that the seller themselves even has this categorized under "marine reptile" rather than "dinosaur" Yes. I noticed that too. As we would say: “per ongeluk expres” (don’t know how to translate that). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 1 minute ago, sjaak said: Yes. I noticed that too. As we would say: “per ongeluk expres” (don’t know how to translate that). I think "accidentally on purpose" would work 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FF7_Yuffie Posted March 14, 2021 Author Share Posted March 14, 2021 4 hours ago, sjaak said: Ok sorry and sorry to break into this topic. Hope it’s allowed (Please remove if not) but I think it fits with the discussion. This vertebra is advertised as a UK cetiosaurus but I think it’s pliosaurus as well? I think I've had this one looked at on here too. Consrnsus was marine reptile along with the others that the seller has listed. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DE&i Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 On 3/12/2021 at 3:12 PM, FF7_Yuffie said: Hi, a second one. This one measures 10 x 9 x 6.3. Same location, sauropod. Many thanks as always. Vertebra centrum lightly prepped with a few in-situ from the Kimmeridge Clay for comparison if it helps. 3 1 Regards.....D&E&i The only certainty with fossil hunting is the uncertainty. https://lnk.bio/Darren.Withers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DE&i Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 .... Should have added ( and not for sale at any price) 1 Regards.....D&E&i The only certainty with fossil hunting is the uncertainty. https://lnk.bio/Darren.Withers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 1 hour ago, DE&i said: Vertebra centrum lightly prepped with a few in-situ from the Kimmeridge Clay for comparison if it helps. Nice find! I wish we had places around here where you can find stuff like this In any case, looks like another pliosaur, based on the paired subcentral foramina (although the strong hourglass shape is less common in pliosaurs, but not unusual)? 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulgdls Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 @DE&i Lovely jubbly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FF7_Yuffie Posted March 15, 2021 Author Share Posted March 15, 2021 I had the first vert looked at, here's the reply. "I have asked ********* to take a look, he thinks that it is a large Plesiosaur dorsal centrum, certainly not pliosaur and in his humble opinion unlikely to be dinosaur." 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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