Whitby area reptile bones

[dhiggi]

Daughter and I had a walk in the Whitby area this morning, didn’t come away with much but these two little chunks of bone made the trip worthwhile. The larger one (pics 3-6) appears to have ribs no more than about 5mm in diameter along with a lot of other bones. The smaller one (pics 1,2,7,8) looks to have two or three partial verts, but I can’t see if the centres are concave like ichthyosaur and to me they look too flat to be ples/croc.

Can anyone shed any light on either piece? 
Thank you for looking

Edited April 2, 2021 by dhiggi
Pictures in wrong order

[dhiggi]

Also picked up this jumble of plant material, is there anything identifiable there?

[dhiggi]

Any ideas @pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon ?

Thank you 

[Mike from North Queensland]

The profile shape in 1 2 7 8 suggest ichthyosaur vertabrae.

Another angle of the surface on the other specimen may help but for an answer removal from matrix may be needed.

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

I agree with @Mike from North Queensland concerning the piece with the three vertebrae: their flat shape, with width being far greater than height, would indeed suggest ichthyosaur, as does the "cap" visible in the first and very last photographs. This is not uncommonly found with ichthyosaur vertebrae due to their hourglass-shape, which can leave the vertebral infill differentially attached then the rest of the matrix. This is sometimes referred to as a "popper" (see images below from an online vendor for comparison). The reason the hourglass-shape is not visible in cross-section, by the way, it's likely that we're looking at cross-sections closer to the outer edge of the vertebrae rather than near their centre, where the depression would be clearest.

 

 

The second piece also seems to have vertebrae, although in this case, the more squarish shapes would be more suggestive of plesiosaur. But I'll have to get back to you on that later, when I've got a bit more time. The possible ribs on the side are quite interesting as well. Any chance we could get either a higher resolution or more zoomed-in picture of that? Also, could you take a picture of the overall piece with your hand or other scale indication, so that it'd be easier to judge the scale of the potential vertebrae?

 

As to the plant (nice find, by the way!), @TqB might be able to help out...

Edited April 4, 2021 by pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
Forgot to add the images

[dhiggi]

3 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

I agree with @Mike from North Queensland concerning the piece with the three vertebrae: their flat shape, with width being far greater than height, would indeed suggest ichthyosaur, as does the "cap" visible in the first and very last photographs. This is not uncommonly found with ichthyosaur vertebrae due to their hourglass-shape, which can leave the vertebral infill differentially attached then the rest of the matrix. This is sometimes referred to as a "popper" (see images below from an online vendor for comparison). The reason the hourglass-shape is not visible in cross-section, by the way, it's likely that we're looking at cross-sections closer to the outer edge of the vertebrae rather than near their centre, where the depression would be clearest.

 

 

The second piece also seems to have vertebrae, although in this case, the more squarish shapes would be more suggestive of plesiosaur. But I'll have to get back to you on that later, when I've got a bit more time. The possible ribs on the side are quite interesting as well. Any chance we could get either a higher resolution or more zoomed-in picture of that? Also, could you take a picture of the overall piece with your hand or other scale indication, so that it'd be easier to judge the scale of the potential vertebrae?

 

As to the plant (nice find, by the way!), @TqB might be able to help out...

Regarding the first piece, in your opinion is the matrix likely to ‘pop’ if freed or could it be too sticky?

 

Here’s some more (hopefully better) pics of the second piece. I have added arrows to one to show the seven ribs. Excuse all the bird noise in the video if it works, there’s an aviary right next to where I work!

 

Thank you

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

17 hours ago, dhiggi said:

Regarding the first piece, in your opinion is the matrix likely to ‘pop’ if freed or could it be too sticky?

 

Unfortunately, I don't have too much experience with finding ichthyosaur vertebrae still embedded in matrix like this, so wouldn't know how firmly the infill would be affixed. I have heard people finding loose caps on beaches as well, though, so I'm thinking it'd be likely that they do come out more easily. But I'd say that also very much depends on the type of rock concerned, how much differentiation there is between matrix and cap (i.e., how sticky the matrix is or - in cooking analogy - how well the mould's been buttered before baking ), and how firmly the cap is still attached to other matrix. So, though there's a reasonable chance that these caps pop off, I don't think you can count on them doing so. If you do mechanical preparation on a piece like this, however, keep in mind you'll have a hard time if the bone turns out softer than the surrounding matrix. Again, I unfortunately don't have a lot of experience with Whitby material other than commercially sold pieces - which I presume to be sturdier and higher quality examples, so may not be representative (although from experience at Lyme Regis I'd say they are).

 

As to the second piece, although rather small, I'd still say I can make out four vertebrae, although they are very small. However, the arrangement of the bone fibres encircling the centre of each perceived vertebra is more consistent to what I'd expect of a vertebra rather than any other kind of bone, including paddle bones - the flat type often has radial fibres, whereas the elongated (more typical phalangial) type has its fibres arranged following the lengthwise direction of the bone. As they are so small, I have no clue as to what animal they could be from, however, although they clearly aren't ichthyosaurian (too tall for that).

 

 

The proposed ribs are a bit puzzling, to be honest, as they seem to consist of a core with a wall around it. This is not consistent with either the ichthyosaurian or plesiosaurian ribs I've seen, and, in fact, doesn't appear particularly marine to me (fish also have solid rib bones). I have a single bone with infill in my collection that I found on the IoW, which was identified as pterosaurian. It's possible that these proposed ribs are also pterosaur, though crocodilians apparently also have certain hollow bones. It's also possible, in my opinion, that they're not ribs at all, but may be the cross-sections of belemnites, which would have a similar appearance - though wouldn't be as flattened as some of these "ribs" appear to be. Could you may be take another photograph of the rib sections as exposed in the below photograph, as I think these might be the most informative in trying to determine what these shapes are, seeing as they're matrix free in this part of your find:

 

On 4/2/2021 at 6:05 PM, dhiggi said:

 

[dhiggi]

@pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon

 

I removed a little bit of the matrix from the first piece, unfortunately the outer surface of the bone was coming off with the matrix so I don’t want to take it any further. I guess this further confirms that it’s ichthyosaur though.

 

Hopefully these closeups on the possible ribs are some help. They don’t appear to have the same internal structure as belemnites found around here.

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

1 hour ago, dhiggi said:

I removed a little bit of the matrix from the first piece, unfortunately the outer surface of the bone was coming off with the matrix so I don’t want to take it any further. I guess this further confirms that it’s ichthyosaur though.

 

Pity the cortex came along. Probably the matrix is just very sticky... But, as you said, we now at least have confirmation of these vertebrae being ichthyosaurian. As I know your daughter has been looking for an ichthyosaur find for a while now, I guess she'll be very happy with it

 

As to the "rib"-sections on the second piece: still hard to say. They do indeed not look like belemnites: too flattened and thick-walled for that, moreover with the wrong internal structure. But it's also hard to say whether these traces are made of bone and whether they truly are hollow. Judging from the side of the piece, it seems reasonable to assume that it is bone we're seeing, though. And the cross-sections do suggest something flat and narrow such as ribs in that case. But ribs are generally even less diagnostic than vertebrae, let alone in cross-section. So no idea what the bone material from the second block could be. Seeing as the small size and cylindrical shape of my proposed vertebrae, we might be dealing with one of the larger fish. Hard to say what you've got there without preparing it out further. But I think that'd be too risky with the matrix looking rather hard (nodule) and the bone possibly being softer than the matrix (especially a concern with the cancellous bone being exposed), as well as strewn all through the block...

 

There are people who would be able to estimate whether the material belongs to a fish or not just by looking at it. But I'm unfortunately not one of them...

[dhiggi]

1 hour ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

 

Pity the cortex came along. Probably the matrix is just very sticky... But, as you said, we now at least have confirmation of these vertebrae being ichthyosaurian. As I know your daughter has been looking for an ichthyosaur find for a while now, I guess she'll be very happy with it

 

As to the "rib"-sections on the second piece: still hard to say. They do indeed not look like belemnites: too flattened and thick-walled for that, moreover with the wrong internal structure. But it's also hard to say whether these traces are made of bone and whether they truly are hollow. Judging from the side of the piece, it seems reasonable to assume that it is bone we're seeing, though. And the cross-sections do suggest something flat and narrow such as ribs in that case. But ribs are generally even less diagnostic than vertebrae, let alone in cross-section. So no idea what the bone material from the second block could be. Seeing as the small size and cylindrical shape of my proposed vertebrae, we might be dealing with one of the larger fish. Hard to say what you've got there without preparing it out further. But I think that'd be too risky with the matrix looking rather hard (nodule) and the bone possibly being softer than the matrix (especially a concern with the cancellous bone being exposed), as well as strewn all through the block...

 

There are people who would be able to estimate whether the material belongs to a fish or not just by looking at it. But I'm unfortunately not one of them...

Thanks for all the info. My daughter is indeed very happy at finding ichthyosaur, she’s really developed the eye for spotting bone material now. She’s found five pieces in the last week, all small though, I’ve said once we find something bigger I’ll get it professionally prepped

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

Your daughter is very lucky with a dad like you. When I was young we were only able to go on a fossil hunt for three days once a year, and now that I've got my own family I'm managing even less 

[dhiggi]

1 hour ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

Your daughter is very lucky with a dad like you. When I was young we were only able to go on a fossil hunt for three days once a year, and now that I've got my own family I'm managing even less 

When I was young I never got to go hunting at all, I think myself lucky that my daughter shares my interests so we can go all the time. Sadly Whitby is still 50 miles away, but even a walk to the local river ends up being a fossil hunt... 

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

That's pretty cool!

1 hour ago, dhiggi said:

When I was young I never got to go hunting at all, I think myself lucky that my daughter shares my interests so we can go all the time. Sadly Whitby is still 50 miles away, but even a walk to the local river ends up being a fossil hunt...

 

That's pretty cool! Looks like Stigmaria?

[dhiggi]

9 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

That's pretty cool!

 

That's pretty cool! Looks like Stigmaria?

It is indeed, it’s all Carboniferous around here. The winter floods have receded and that’s the best stigmaria we’ve found so far