charlie3425 Posted April 8, 2021 Share Posted April 8, 2021 This is supposed to be a Stenopterygius vertebra from Holzmaden, Germany. But is it? Could be a fish vert? (Xiphactinus audax?) 'It was life, Jim. But not as we know it.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Trilo Posted April 8, 2021 Share Posted April 8, 2021 I haven't seen many ichytosaur verts but this looks fishy to me. (ichytosaur first, xiphactinus second) 2 “If fossils are not "boggling" your mind then you are simply not doing it right” -Ken (digit) "No fossil is garbage, it´s just not completely preserved” -Franz (FranzBernhard) "With hammer in hand, the open horizon of time, and dear friends by my side, what can we not accomplish together?" -Kane (Kane) "We are in a way conquering time, reuniting members of a long lost family" -Quincy (Opabinia Blues) "I loved reading the trip reports, I loved the sharing, I loved the educational aspect, I loved the humor. It felt like home. It still does" -Mike (Pagurus) “The best deal I ever got was getting accepted as a member on The Fossil Forum. Not only got an invaluable pool of knowledge, but gained a loving family as well.” -Doren (caldigger) "it really is nice, to visit the oasis that is TFF" -Tim (fossildude19) "Life's Good! -Adam (Tidgy's Dad) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie3425 Posted April 8, 2021 Author Share Posted April 8, 2021 7 hours ago, Top Trilo said: I haven't seen many ichytosaur verts but this looks fishy to me. (ichytosaur first, xiphactinus second) Yeah, I think someone was fishing in my wallet... nice vertebra though. But not what I orderded it for... 'It was life, Jim. But not as we know it.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 (edited) Yeah, I know this one and have always thought there was something fishy about it (pun intended) But to answer your question: no, this is not what an ichthyosaur vertebra is supposed to look like, nor is this conservation consistent with that found at Holzmaden. I thus have no idea where this vertebra might be from and consequently what fish it could've belonged to. There are a couple of features on this vertebra that give it away as not being ichthyosaurian: The neural arch is never directly attached to an ichthyosaurian vertebra, except maybe the very earliest of species. The sides of an ichthyosaurian vertebra are smooth, not ribbed as this one is. Ichthyosaurian vertebrae aren't waisted along their axial length, as this one is. Ribs are not attached to vertebrae in ichthyosaurs. The bevelling or layering of the concavity in the centrum isn't encountered in ichthyosaurs. Points two and three from the above list are actually indicators of this vertebra being a fish vertebra, as is the fact that the vertebra is amphicoelous, a condition found in both fish and ichthyosaurs (and to lesser extend in the amphiplatian to platycoelous plesiosaurs) for the reason it "decouples" the vertebrae from one another and thus gives the spinal chord much more lateral freedom, needed for different modes of swimming. Below are just a couple of examples of ichthyosaurian vertebrae for comparison: Brachypterygius extremus anterior dorsal vertebra, dredged off of Weymouth Anterior caudal vertebra from an unidentified early ichthyosaurian species (Rhaetian or Hettangian) from Newark Cf. Platypterygius sp. tail vertebra from l'Aube Eurhynosaurus longirostris anterior caudal vertebra from Whitby Stenopterygius sp. posterior tail vertebrae from Holzmaden Edited April 10, 2021 by pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 pachy-etc. is spot on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 (edited) I agree with the others: Definitely not an ichthyosaur and the preservation is wrong for Holzmaden. It is a vertebra from a very large, bony fish. Edited April 11, 2021 by Carl 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie3425 Posted April 11, 2021 Author Share Posted April 11, 2021 13 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said: Yeah, I know this one and have always thought there was something fishy about it (pun intended) But to answer your question: no, this is not what an ichthyosaur vertebra is supposed to look like, nor is this conservation consistent with that found at Holzmaden. I thus have no idea where this vertebra might be from and consequently what fish it could've belonged to. There are a couple of features on this vertebra that give it away as not being ichthyosaurian: The neural arch is never directly attached to an ichthyosaurian vertebra, except maybe the very earliest of species. The sides of an ichthyosaurian vertebra are smooth, not ribbed as this one is. Ichthyosaurian vertebrae aren't waisted along their axial length, as this one is. Ribs are not attached to vertebrae in ichthyosaurs. The bevelling or layering of the concavity in the centrum isn't encountered in ichthyosaurs. Points two and three from the above list are actually indicators of this vertebra being a fish vertebra, as is the fact that the vertebra is amphicoelous, a condition found in both fish and ichthyosaurs (and to lesser extend in the amphiplatian to platycoelous plesiosaurs) for the reason it "decouples" the vertebrae from one another and thus gives the spinal chord much more lateral freedom, needed for different modes of swimming. Below are just a couple of examples of ichthyosaurian vertebrae for comparison: Brachypterygius extremus anterior dorsal vertebra, dredged off of Weymouth Anterior caudal vertebra from an unidentified early ichthyosaurian species (Rhaetian or Hettangian) from Newark Cf. Platypterygius sp. tail vertebra from l'Aube Eurhynosaurus longirostris anterior caudal vertebra from Whitby Stenopterygius sp. posterior tail vertebrae from Holzmaden Thank you very much. I've learned a lot today. The seller agreed on a partial refund. It is a nice vert though. Wish I knew wich (big) fish it was from. Next time I will know better anyway! 1 'It was life, Jim. But not as we know it.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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