Anna Marie Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 Found this mineralized bone at Big Brook Nj and on researching it, it looks very similar to photos of both Plesiosaur and Mosasaur vertebrae. About 1-3/4" long. Any help greatly appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 Hi there! Though the hollow on the one side does make it look like a vertebra, pictures form all sides, including head on and from the back, would be needed to attempt identification of the vertebra - and indeed to confirm this is a vertebra at all... Though I do think I see some cancellous bone, right now the pictures are not clear enough to confirm this and it's therefore not clear whether this is indeed a vertebra. 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Marie Posted April 12, 2021 Author Share Posted April 12, 2021 On 4/10/2021 at 6:57 PM, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said: Hi there! Though the hollow on the one side does make it look like a vertebra, pictures form all sides, including head on and from the back, would be needed to attempt identification of the vertebra - and indeed to confirm this is a vertebra at all... Though I do think I see some cancellous bone, right now the pictures are not clear enough to confirm this and it's therefore not clear whether this is indeed a vertebra. Thanks so much for your help. If it's not a vertebrae perhaps , would you have any idea from what it could have possibly come from given it's size? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jersey Devil Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 From the given pictures it looks like slag. 1 1 “You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.” ― Mikhail Tal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 If this is indeed bone, it can only be a vertebra, as far as I'm concerned. That's because of the concavity I think I'm seeing on one end of the tubular shape. This makes it less likely to be any of the other long bones. I don't see this being any other type of fossil either, as the texture is very distinctive. Yet at the same time the current photographs aren't clear enough to say this is bone without doubt. For the honeycomb structure is indeed rather irregular, may be even too much so for bone, and could therefore just as easily be the result of air bubbles escaping cooling slag. Slag is a waste-product of metal-smelting, which would make this find modern industrial waste. I've only ever seen the more common black variant, which has an oily polychrome sheen, however. But apparently there are also white variants that have other additions/constituent parts. With the experience @The Jersey Devil has hunting in your region, I'd say your find it's probably slag if he says it is... 1 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Marie Posted April 12, 2021 Author Share Posted April 12, 2021 48 minutes ago, The Jersey Devil said: From the given pictures it looks like slag. Thanks for the input! Slag dug out of Big Brook? This is prob my fault though with the poor picture quality. And I can't figure out yet how to add photos to the post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 The way you add photographs to a post depends somewhat on whether you're using a PC or a mobile device/phone/tablet. If on a PC, you can simply drag and drop image files from your explorer/finder into the browser, dropping them either in the text-input area or in the area slightly below. This same area also has a link "Drag files here to attach, or choose files...". If you click on "choose files", you can browse for them on your file system. On a mobile device it should be even simpler as you'll see an "add files"-button. Clicking it will bring up your system's file-browser from which you can pick the photographs to attach. 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 Might be slag but it is probably the core of a small mosasaur vertebrae. 1 1 : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 7 minutes ago, Trevor said: Might be slag but it is probably the core of a small mosasaur vertebrae. That's what I was thinking when I first saw this. But to confirm that we need better pictures... 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 16 hours ago, Anna Marie said: This is prob my fault though with the poor picture quality. And I can't figure out yet how to add photos to the post You can add more photos via the reply box at the bottom of the page. 1 1 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plax Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 16 hours ago, Trevor said: Might be slag but it is probably the core of a small mosasaur vertebrae. I'm with Trevor barring better pics that look more like slag. The larger holes can be gastrochaenid borings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 51 minutes ago, Plax said: I'm with Trevor barring better pics that look more like slag. The larger holes can be gastrochaenid borings. We definitely seem to have a smooth concave articulation surface, and the overall shape of the find is cylindrical. It was these two features, in combination with the rough similarity to cancellous bone that made me think this would indeed be a vertebra. In fact, I think that even a photograph of the back end of the cylinder to see if it's both convex and smooth could be enough to validate this as a mosasaur vertebra. And I'm indeed still inclined to consider the piece as such. But I'd love to have better pictures to validate what seems to be the growing consensus. 1 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Marie Posted April 13, 2021 Author Share Posted April 13, 2021 Thanks so much everyone for all your help and opinions no matter what this actually is! Much appreciation! I figured out with your help how to add the photos and hope these help. I will say the only thing that makes me think it's not slag is where I pulled it from. It was in a newly exposed bank wall that was pretty remote. It was sticking out of what I can only describe the bank walls there of a extremely compacted cement-like clay? Hope that makes sense. Seems surely to me that anything modern could have gotten into it. That being said, hope these pictures come through and thanks again no matter what this is!! .nd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Marie Posted April 13, 2021 Author Share Posted April 13, 2021 Let's try that again. End photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Marie Posted April 13, 2021 Author Share Posted April 13, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Marie Posted April 13, 2021 Author Share Posted April 13, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 Thanks for posting the additional photographs! Based on this, though, I now find myself shifted firmly into the "slag"-camp: the plentiful areas of fine granulation and the irregular size of holes doesn't look enough like cancellous bone, and the concave surface looks both too porous and not graded enough - that is, it looks like it has a bevel around it on one side, giving an irregular looks. Now, of course, we can find an argument to explain away all these individual oddities, but the more we need to do this, the less likely it is this is indeed a mosasaur vertebra. It would've been good to have a photograph from the other end as well - but, at the point, I doubt it matters too much... One question that hasn't been asked yet, and that I think would also have been informative in this respect, is whether this find feel light to the touch - that is, lighter than a stone of comparable size. The slag I'm familiar with is notably lighter... 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Marie Posted April 13, 2021 Author Share Posted April 13, 2021 27 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said: One question that hasn't been asked yet, and that I think would also have been informative in this respect, is whether this find feel light to the touch - that is, lighter than a stone of comparable size. The slag I'm familiar with is notably lighter... Thanks so much for the info! To answer your question, no it's not light at all, quite heavy like a rock 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Marie Posted April 13, 2021 Author Share Posted April 13, 2021 1 hour ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said: Thanks for posting the additional photographs! Based on this, though, I now find myself shifted firmly into the "slag"-camp: the plentiful areas of fine granulation and the irregular size of holes doesn't look enough like cancellous bone, and the concave surface looks both too porous and not graded enough - that is, it looks like it has a bevel around it on one side, giving an irregular looks. Now, of course, we can find an argument to explain away all these individual oddities, but the more we need to do this, the less likely it is this is indeed a mosasaur vertebra. It would've been good to have a photograph from the other end as well - but, at the point, I doubt it matters too much... One question that hasn't been asked yet, and that I think would also have been informative in this respect, is whether this find feel light to the touch - that is, lighter than a stone of comparable size. The slag I'm familiar with is notably lighter... Also, I found this post on this site in ref to the porous surface. If you scroll to the 6th post it there's more photos of his. Mine looks similar. He was questioning if his could be another bone. Is that possible and this is the worn down interior of mine as well?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Marie Posted April 13, 2021 Author Share Posted April 13, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 2 minutes ago, Anna Marie said: Also, I found this post on this site in ref to the porous surface. If you scroll to the 6th post it there's more photos of his. Mine looks similar. He was questioning if his could be another bone. Is that possible and this is the worn down interior of mine as well?? The fact that yours looks similar is indeed what originally made me think it might be bone, as is the case with the post you're referring to. As with the specimens in that post, the prime suspect for your find is the worn core of a mosasaur vertebra (rather than phalangi/finger bones as was briefly proposed in the other thread). The main difference between your find and that of the other thread, though, is the texture on your piece: yours lacks the longitudinal "honeycomb"-structure seen in the other specimens. As that's what defines bone (cancellous bone in particular) and I don't see that in your find, this, for me, closes the hypothesis of your specimen being bone. For, while the tiny holes on your piece may be suggestive, as is the overall shape, such holes are often found in slag as well, seeing as this is where air bubbles escaped. P.s.: you can link to specific posts, rather than the thread, by pressing the three dots to the right of the message, selecting "Share" and then copying the URL that appears 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Marie Posted April 13, 2021 Author Share Posted April 13, 2021 1 minute ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said: The fact that yours looks similar is indeed what originally made me think it might be bone, as is the case with the post you're referring to. As with the specimens in that post, the prime suspect for your find is the worn core of a mosasaur vertebra (rather than phalangi/finger bones as was briefly proposed in the other thread). The main difference between your find and that of the other thread, though, is the texture on your piece: yours lacks the longitudinal "honeycomb"-structure seen in the other specimens. As that's what defines bone (cancellous bone in particular) and I don't see that in your find, this, for me, closes the hypothesis of your specimen being bone. For, while the tiny holes on your piece may be suggestive, as is the overall shape, such holes are often found in slag as well, seeing as this is where air bubbles escaped. P.s.: you can link to specific posts, rather than the thread, by pressing the three dots to the right of the message, selecting "Share" and then copying the URL that appears Thanks SO much for your in-depth explanation on all of it!! You are very informative and I've appreciated it so much!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 You're very welcome! We all need to learn and start somewhere, right? 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 2 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said: Thanks for posting the additional photographs! Based on this, though, I now find myself shifted firmly into the "slag"-camp: the plentiful areas of fine granulation and the irregular size of holes doesn't look enough like cancellous bone, and the concave surface looks both too porous and not graded enough - that is, it looks like it has a bevel around it on one side, giving an irregular looks. Now, of course, we can find an argument to explain away all these individual oddities, but the more we need to do this, the less likely it is this is indeed a mosasaur vertebra. It would've been good to have a photograph from the other end as well - but, at the point, I doubt it matters too much... One question that hasn't been asked yet, and that I think would also have been informative in this respect, is whether this find feel light to the touch - that is, lighter than a stone of comparable size. The slag I'm familiar with is notably lighter... I am more in the slag camp too now. I just can't tell though I without seeing it up very close; I have found pieces of verts that were extremely difficult to identity, and I think this is the case here, should it actually be a vert. 1 : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePhysicist Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 I vote not bone. 1 "Argumentation cannot suffice for the discovery of new work, since the subtlety of Nature is greater many times than the subtlety of argument." - Carl Sagan "I was born not knowing and have had only a little time to change that here and there." - Richard Feynman Collections: Hell Creek Microsite | Hell Creek/Lance | Dinosaurs | Sharks | Squamates | Post Oak Creek | North Sulphur River | Lee Creek | Aguja | Permian | Devonian | Triassic | Harding Sandstone Instagram: @thephysicist_tff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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