Insisting you're right, despite multiple experts stating otherwise.

[Fossil_Adult]

I've been on the forum for some time, and recently I've noticed something that has bothered me. I've seen about 3 different posts just today where people will post rocks, say it's a fossil when it's not, and then when experts tell them otherwise, they insist on their findings. I don't know whether they're trolling, or actually think that the rock they found is a fossil but it bothers me when people who have had years, decades sometimes, of experience tell you their professional take on it, that the person receiving the experts opinion wants to insist that they're not wrong, it's becoming a pattern and I don't understand why people ask in the first place if they've already made up their mind on what it is. I guess to get validation? I don't know but I wrote this just to say that if you think you have something, and your wrong about it, take the experts opinion with grace. Or, don't ask at all!

 

This is getting irritating, I don't know why people have to ask if they've already made up their mind.

[JohnJ]

1 minute ago, Fossil_teenager said:

This is getting irritating, I don't know why people have to ask if they've already made up their mind.

 

It has happened on TFF since the beginning; it's nothing new.  Nor is it anything to worry about.  People believe incredible things...it is part of what exists within the spectrum of human behavior.  The rationale underlying these posts can be equally as varied.  

 

We address these inquiries politely on TFF.  In some cases, people have a large learning curve and eventually begin to see things based on the evidence.  In others, they are bound to their beliefs and nothing can change their mind.  In those cases, they can find a different venue than TFF to pursue their 'theories'.

 

Again, it's nothing to worry about. 

[Troodon]

Let me add that In most cases we suggest taking their specimen to a museum to have if checked out if they don't believe us.  Not sure we've ever heard back from anyone.

[Fossil_Adult]

The thing about it is getting information you didn't know should be a good thing, because you know something that you didn't know before. For example, there was some posts of mine where I had thought I found dinosaur material in PG county and it turned out not to be. I showed it to the CMM and they reiterated that it wasn't what I thought it was, so that should inspire people to look further and dig deeper. But yeah, I should not be worrying about other people, it's just weird that I've seen so many ignorant posts today is all. 

[Kane]

1 hour ago, Fossil_teenager said:

The thing about it is getting information you didn't know should be a good thing, because you know something that you didn't know before. For example, there was some posts of mine where I had thought I found dinosaur material in PG county and it turned out not to be. I showed it to the CMM and they reiterated that it wasn't what I thought it was, so that should inspire people to look further and dig deeper.

Those who are correct the least, have the potential to learn the most -- if they are willing to do so.

You have the right attitude.  

[Top Trilo]

Just now, Kane said:

Those who are correct the least, have the potential to learn the most

Great news for me 

[Crusty_Crab]

2 hours ago, Troodon said:

Let me add that In most cases we suggest taking their specimen to a museum to have if checked out if they don't believe us.  Not sure we've ever heard back from anyone.

I've seen one example of someone that came back after taking his rock to a museum. I was on the myFOSSIL.org website a while back and there was someone that posted pictures of a rock that he himself later said was granite. He then proceeded to identify fins, teeth and beaks in the rock. He started to "prepare" it with sand paper that caused it to get hot and expand. Of course, there were the usual comments about rock, not fossil. He then claimed to have taken it to his local geology department who validated everything he said and then chided everyone for not supporting his discovery. True story. 

[Harry Pristis]

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' "
     Isaac Asimov, column in Newsweek (21 January 1980)

[Fossil_Adult]

People will go out of their way to justify their beliefs, even at the expense of an experts opinion. I'm so happy to see a lot of like minded people on here, but I guess the minority (or majority depending on the time and place) really just came out today to throw their uneducated opinion on something that is obviously a rock and NOT a fossil. But I can rest easy tonight knowing this forum really isn't full of people who think concrete is a dinosaur skull. 

[digit]

1 hour ago, Fossil_teenager said:

I'm so happy to see a lot of like minded people on here

I've realized that our membership is anything but "like minded". We are incredibly diverse in many aspects of our beliefs, cultures, personal lives and professions but we do share a respect for science and logical thought and do have an insatiable curiosity for our one unifying passion--fossils and fossil knowledge.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[JohnJ]

1 hour ago, Fossil_teenager said:

I guess the minority (or majority depending on the time and place) really just came out today to throw their uneducated opinion on something that is obviously a rock and NOT a fossil.

 

Please notice and always keep in mind, on TFF, we do our best to be polite and respectful...no matter how "uneducated" we consider another's opinion.  

[jdp]

As a professional paleontologist, what I'll say is this. When I volunteer an ID, even as a professional opinion, it in no way indebts anyone to accept my ID. There are even times where I'll get an ID wrong, so it's true that even professionals are not always correct. But even if I'm confident I'm correct, if it gives someone pleasure to hold a different opinion, that is their prerogative and I would never deny someone that pleasure. In the science itself, of course, I will argue rigorously for what I think is correct, but that doesn't really apply to a fossil or pseudofossil in someone's private collection.

[RJB]

Some folks choose to remain ignorant even if they dont know it.

 

RB

[Fossil_Adult]

Yeah, I guess it is a trivial matter, if that's what people want to believe, then more power to them. It's a free country, after all. I haven't been on here long enough to get used to all the differing opinions so I just want to thank y'all for responding! This was a good practice run for me, I'll be sure to be respectful of everyone's opinions, and echo the same message y'all have said if they're stubbon, "Take it to a museum." On another note, I know this is an international forum so I'm not saying like minded in that fasion because everyone thinks differentley, I just love the fact that we have a community where everyone enjoys the same hobby (or career depending who you are).

[hadrosauridae]

19 minutes ago, Fossil_teenager said:

Yeah, I guess it is a trivial matter, if that's what people want to believe, then more power to them. It's a free country, after all. I haven't been on here long enough to get used to all the differing opinions so I just want to thank y'all for responding! This was a good practice run for me, I'll be sure to be respectful of everyone's opinions, and echo the same message y'all have said if they're stubbon, "Take it to a museum." On another note, I know this is an international forum so I'm not saying like minded in that fasion because everyone thinks differentley, I just love the fact that we have a community where everyone enjoys the same hobby (or career depending who you are).

 

This is something I've seen for as long as I can remember.  Its called pareidolia.  The human brain is hard-wired to find meaning and order in seemingly random things.  ITs why we can recognize individual faces.  Its also why we can see shapes in clouds, faces on the moon.  So when people go out looking for fossils and see a round rock that they think fits the shape of and "egg" or looks like a "dinosaur head" then thats what they believe it must be.  Some people are open minded and simply asking for opinion and information.  Some people are already closed down to debate and looking only for validation of their belief.  It never does any good to be mean or rude to those closed minded types, regardless of how stubborn they are.  Trying to debate or ague with them only gets ugly, so its best just say what you see, and then refer them to some poor, unsuspecting museum or collegiate paleontologist.

[ScottBlooded]

Honestly, I’ve gotten to the point where I kind of enjoy it. Biggest draw of the site are the actual finds, but honestly there’s been some ideas so wild, some people (adults!) that get so indignant that it’s hard not to be at least a little entertained. To the extent that my wife on a regular basis asks “anything crazy on the fossil forum?” by which she means “anyone find a cool fossil, or did anyone find a ‘dragon’?” I admit that I get kind of offended on behalf of the actual experts on here that offer their time only to be told by an amateur that approached THEM that they’re wrong, but I find that one guys reply up there to be an extremely healthy way of looking at it (leave em to their own opinion, it’s their private collection, why would I care?)

I did however have a thought the other day. I’ve been on this forum for less than a year and can already tell that you guys get a steady stream of these sorts of posts. I’d almost wonder if there’s a sociological study in there somewhere. It seems like the overwhelming portion of these are people saying they found skulls, dragons, or eggs. Eggs I get because concretions are everywhere and they do look like what you’d imagine a fossil egg would look like. Skulls I guess because it most readily tickles the pareidolia part of the brain, but I wonder if there’s a tendency towards a certain type of skull. I also wonder why dragons. So many dragons!

[jpc]

2 hours ago, ScottBlooded said:

Honestly, I’ve gotten to the point where I kind of enjoy it.

You win. 

I have been trying to avoid many of those posts, certainly after they come back insisting they were right. 

 

Some folks here may remember the guy about 6 years ago who had found turtle eggs in TX.  He had the x-rayed and was convinced.  They were the size of a big grapefruit.  We all told him no... these were concretions.  He drove all the way from Minnesota to Wyoming to show them to me, and left convinced that he was right after I showed him  what to expect in a turtle egg and how his was more of a rock than a fossil. 

 

A lot of these folks will interpret "take it a museum" as meaning "show the experts why they are wrong...in person".  

[Harry Pristis]

 

Cunningham's Law: "The best way to get the right answer on the Internet is not to ask a question, it's to post the wrong answer." This refers to the observation that people are quicker to correct a wrong answer than to answer a question.

 

Cunningham's Law in its simplest form: people generally don’t want to be helpful, but they do want to be the smartest person in the room. Contrast this generality with this measure of intelligence:

 

Intelligent people practice intellectual humility.  Intellectually humble people challenge their conclusions based on evidence and feedback from others. As a simplistic example, you’ll see this when people say, “From what I’ve seen, it could be true.” Rather than, “It’s definitely true.” They frame their observations as open to critique. They prize truth over ego.

[digit]

5 minutes ago, Harry Pristis said:

As a simplistic example, you’ll see this when people say, “From what I’ve seen, it could be true.” Rather than, “It’s definitely true.” They frame their observations as open to critique. They prize truth over ego.

Unless it is a dugong rib bone from the Peace River, I generally couch all of my potential IDs with the disclaimer of what it appears to be to me. I've been proven wrong (and learned a bit in the process) too many times to try to claim expertise in anything but the most certain types of fossils--and then in general terms: horn corals, horse teeth, turtle shell, etc.

 

The only time I tend to stand firmer in my opinion is when someone brings something like a "petrified mushroom" or "fossilized heart with the red blood still in it". For those cases I'll be polite but more firm than usual. Even when stating that there is absolutely no room for argument on these objects, an argument is often what precipitates. There is no place on this forum for being nasty or rude even if they are stubbornly holding onto impossible positions. We really do hope that anybody who comes here with a T-rex egg (why is it never a Psittacosaurus?) might stick around and learn a bit about actual fossils. Some enjoy the welcoming atmosphere here and soak up some knowledge (even if they lurk for a while after their initial misidentification). Others only visit the forum to confirm what they already know. When their minds are already set in concrete and any attempts at education fail then they are usually urged to seek their confirmation elsewhere.

 

We get a steady stream of people with a strong pareidolia response and usually a suggestive rock that triggers it landing them on our forum. Occasionally, they bunch up and it seems like a Pareidolia Day parade with a cluster of eggs, heads, mushrooms, hearts or other creatures preserved in a heretofore unknown preservation process. They are (thankfully) not the bulk of our members nor more than a fraction of a percent of the many posts here. One by one they are all replied to by both staff and the general membership who are willing to clear up misconceptions and share fossil information. Those that react poorly to having their bubble burst or who seem to be trolls who derive some sort of twisted pleasure by wasting our time are shown the door, but courteously.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[jdp]

What I will say is that I have seen cases where serious collectors and even professionals have made serious mis-IDs where an actual real interesting fossil was attributed to pareidolia. I've even seen this in the field once or twice. Again, it is not common but it does happen. So, I just try to approach any ID request as genuine and not make assumptions about what it is I am about to see. Sometimes I am pleasantly surprised.

[Fossil_Adult]

Well it's only human to make mistakes, even seasoned vets get things wrong sometimes, it's in our nature after all. I always enjoy going on the egg posts because 95 percent of the time, it's a concretion or a rock. But I saw this one post a while back where it was an actual egg and I thought to myself "wow! It's actually possible that people find eggs and not just concretions!" It was just so funny because it really doesn't happen a lot where someone finds something that actually, y'know, is something! 

[Tidgy's Dad]

It would make everything so much easier if everybody just accepted that I am always right.  

[ScottBlooded]

1 hour ago, jpc said:

You win. 

I have been trying to avoid many of those posts, certainly after they come back insisting they were right. 

 

Some folks here may remember the guy about 6 years ago who had found turtle eggs in TX.  He had the x-rayed and was convinced.  They were the size of a big grapefruit.  We all told him no... these were concretions.  He drove all the way from Minnesota to Wyoming to show them to me, and left convinced that he was right after I showed him  what to expect in a turtle egg and how his was more of a rock than a fossil. 

 

A lot of these folks will interpret "take it a museum" as meaning "show the experts why they are wrong...in person".  

Hahaha man I gotta say you are far braver than I am, I would be mildly concerned if some of the folks I’ve seen get very into their ID on here knew where I lived. But at the same time, those are some of the ones I find most baffling. Your guy spent hours driving for that one fossil, never mind the work I’m sure he did on it at home. There was another guy on here that I know spends sooooo much time on the “fossils” he keeps finding in his area that are, again and again, the same kind of rock. I feel like in most of these cases, if a fraction of that time were spent reading actual information on the subject (almost always provided by generous experts like yourself) or even just searching “fossilized _____” they’d be able to verify that they’re off. I know the answer isn’t the tired old “nobody reads anymore!” but I do find myself yelling at my phone occasionally “please just read!!”

[Auspex]

15 hours ago, JohnJ said:

 

Please notice and always keep in mind, on TFF, we do our best to be polite and respectful...no matter how "uneducated" we consider another's opinion.  

Also, the original poster is just one of thousands who will read the thread; it is these folks that will benefit from the patient, well-explained input that we hope to impart. The last thing we want is to have any curious minds turned away from science because of a negative exchange they read here.

[Kane]

The use of hedging words ("may," "might be", "looks like") is more in line with scientific discourse as it doesn't foreclose possibility through an assumed complete knowledge (i.e., as is found in the rationalist disciplines that may proceed axiomatically).  Scientific discourse is innately humble akin to the intellectual humility Harry Pristis defined above.