Sauropod scute -- Kem Kem

[FF7_Yuffie]

Hi,

 

I saw this for sale and figured it'd be nice to display alongside my Kem Kem Sauropod teeth. But is it actually a dermal scute as described? I see a few others of these sold as sauropod scutes, but it just be a case of misidentification, so figured it best to check here.

It is from Kem Kem. Sellers description says these are sold as scutes but that he hasn't seen any scientific papers describing them as such, so the ID could be wrong.

 

Thanks

  

  

  

[Carl]

Doesn't looks like any osteoderms I've seen. I think it is much more likely to be the articular surface of a vertebra.

[Troodon]

I've seen these for sale before and have a couple in my collection but have not seen anything published from the KK on osteoderms so I'm clueless on what it is.  When I compare this one to those that have been published from Sauropods from other regions there is no match.  None are round or that compressed.   No guarantee its from a Dinosaur could be from a Crocodyliforms.   Another possibility is that its Ankylosaurian, with that center ridge and depressed ventral side,  which we have some evidence of their existence in this fauna.  So it looks like a nice specimen to have and I'm sure someday we might have an answer. 

Maybe someone already has and will enlighten us.

[FF7_Yuffie]

8 minutes ago, Troodon said:

I've seen these for sale before and have a couple in my collection but have not seen anything published from the KK on osteoderms so I'm clueless on what it is.  When I compare this one to those that have been published from Sauropods from other regions there is no match.  None are round or that compressed.   No guarantee its from a Dinosaur could be from a Crocodyliforms.   Another possibility is that its Ankylosaurian, with that center ridge and depressed ventral side,  which we have some evidence of their existence in this fauna.  So it looks like a nice specimen to have and I'm sure someday we might have an answer. 

Maybe someone already has and will enlighten us.

 

Thanks for the info. 

 

I had no idea Ankylosaurs were from Kem Kem. They must have been extremely scarce---never seen any fossils of Ankylosaurs or teeth at all. Although, doing a quick google--I saw you had a Kem Kem tooth that's a possibly from one. Very cool.

 

It's an interesting fossil--if croc, it's much different than the other Kem Kem croc scutes I have which are all more or less rectangular shape.

[Troodon]

There is one partial tooth that has been published that has the possibility of being one but nothing confirmed.  Hopefully some day we can get some more definitive answers 

 

From Ibrahim et al. Paper noted on photo

[gigantoraptor]

Are we sure this is an osteoderm? I have a couple that look really similar and ID'ed them as tooth plates of Palaeonotopterus greenwoodi. Image below.

 

 

Image from: 

Cavin, Lionel, Larbi Boudad, Haiyan Tong, Emilie Läng, Jérôme Tabouelle, en Romain Vullo. ‘Taxonomic Composition and Trophic Structure of the Continental Bony Fish Assemblage from the Early Late Cretaceous of Southeastern Morocco’. PLoS ONE 10 (27 mei 2015)

 

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by gigantoraptor

[FF7_Yuffie]

Interesting, the ankylosaur teeth is one I'll keep an eye out for on the off chance one crops up at some. The scute has already been sold, so I missed out on it, unfortunately.

 

Oh well. 

[FF7_Yuffie]

3 minutes ago, gigantoraptor said:

Are we sure this is an osteoderm? I have a couple that look really similar and ID'ed them as tooth plates of Palaeonotopterus greenwoodi. Image below.

 

 

Image from: 

Cavin, Lionel, Larbi Boudad, Haiyan Tong, Emilie Läng, Jérôme Tabouelle, en Romain Vullo. ‘Taxonomic Composition and Trophic Structure of the Continental Bony Fish Assemblage from the Early Late Cretaceous of Southeastern Morocco’. PLoS ONE 10 (27 mei 2015)

 

 

 

I just had a look at these--something I never considered.

Do the Palaeonotopterus plates have the sort of point thing at the top? Because the pair I've found for sale look flat.

[gigantoraptor]

3 minutes ago, FF7_Yuffie said:

 

I just had a look at these--something I never considered.

Do the Palaeonotopterus plates have the sort of point thing at the top? Because the pair I've found for sale look flat.

 

This picture is taken from the internet, not mine, but it shows a side view which might be helpfull to you.

 

[Troodon]

Osteoderm is one possibility since it's unknown anything is indeed possible.  I see that in this specimen that the crested dorsal side and depression in the ventral side seems to be consistent with others I've seen.  However this being the KK anything is possible why it's unknown 

 

I dont see the P greenwoodi plate as equivalent.   It's very different, more of a sphere laterally

[JohnJ]

1 hour ago, gigantoraptor said:

Are we sure this is an osteoderm? I have a couple that look really similar and ID'ed them as tooth plates of Palaeonotopterus greenwoodi. Image below.

 

@Carl 

 

I think @gigantoraptor may be onto something.  Although the species may not match, the original object posted does show some characteristics of a fish, bony mouth plate.  The edge views appear to display the dimpling and striations characteristic of these plates.

 

[Carl]

On 5/13/2021 at 12:15 PM, JohnJ said:

 

@Carl 

 

I think @gigantoraptor may be onto something.  Although the species may not match, the original object posted does show some characteristics of a fish, bony mouth plate.  The edge views appear to display the dimpling and striations characteristic of these plates.

 

I would LOVE it if it were one of these!

[Pemphix]

On 5/13/2021 at 6:15 PM, JohnJ said:

 

@Carl 

 

I think @gigantoraptor may be onto something.  Although the species may not match, the original object posted does show some characteristics of a fish, bony mouth plate.  The edge views appear to display the dimpling and striations characteristic of these plates.

 

 

I think this one fits to a lungfish tooth-plate. Structure is typical...