Fossil Id and bone question

[nerzhin]

Hi I have two questions. Both are southeast Michigan finds. The first is a phallic fossil coral or something. Not sure what. The other is a deer bone with unusual growth on it. Cancer? Any help would be appreciated.

[Rockwood]

The first is the base of an antler. The second definitely a pathological bone.

[nerzhin]

Hi-thanks for the response. Under a microscope, the coral antlerbase thing looks mineralized-do antlers mineralize? And if so, over what a length of time would it need? thanks

[Misha]

I disagree, the first object is not an antler. It's definitely the inside of a solitary rugose coral. The unusual shapes on it is the exposed dissepiment.

 

 

[ClearLake]

Yes, I have to agree with @Misha, that first one looks “stoney” to me and I think it is a coral.

 

I have some deer bone that also has pathological growth similar to yours. Not exactly sure what causes it. Maybe a vet would know!? @minnbuckeye

[Thomas.Dodson]

I agree with Misha. Aside from the dissepiment I believe I see septae in the second photo.

 

I've seen such pathological bone before, some of which was definitely cancer but I can't say with certainty that this is cancerous growth. It does look it though.

[Lone Hunter]

Thought I'd throw my 2 cent's worth in since I worked with a wildlife vet for several years. If it's a deer bone probably not cancer, deer have genes that enable them to control cancer cells, their antlers are actually a controlled form of bone cancer. Could that be hard callus that formed around a fracture, maybe with infection?

[Rockwood]

2 hours ago, nerzhin said:

Hi-thanks for the response. Under a microscope, the coral antlerbase thing looks mineralized-do antlers mineralize? And if so, over what a length of time would it need? thanks

Sure do. Pleistocene would do it. It doesn't look much like a coral at all to me.

Are you sure the other bone isn't  mineralized ?

[minnbuckeye]

 

 

 

   

@ClearLake Bone cancer verses exostosis verses trauma/infection. Bone cancer would eat away the cortical layer of the bone. Exostosis occurs mostly on the outside of a relatively normal cortex. Bone cancer mostly occurs in a high leg bone (femur/humerus). Cancer often comes from exposure to carcinogens. Most carcinogens are human produced, so not in the environment of a deer that is fossilized. Deer injure their lower legs frequently and infection is not uncommon with this. @nerzhin, Can we see a picture of the ends of the bone? 

 

 This is a picture of a deer bone with cancer:

 

 by arrythmiaheart/imgur

  

I am in the rugosa coral thought on the other. Look at the second picture. One can clearly see the classic broken tip to many horned corals.

 

 Mike

Edited May 15, 2021 by minnbuckeye

[Mahnmut]

Hi,

though it is sadly true that the uppermost Anthropocene has seen a terrible lot of new carcinogens, cancer has been here way before us.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaurs-suffered-cancer-too-180975467/

https://www.sciencealert.com/analysis-of-medieval-skeletons-reveals-a-cancer-rate-far-higher-than-expected

 

(Not saying that the bone above must be cancerous, the alternatives mentioned above (Callus, Infection) seem plausible to me)

Aloha,

J

 

 

[FossilDAWG]

The first object is certainly a rugosan coral with the epitheca (outer layer) partly abraded exposing the interior, which is mostly made up of dissepiments. Misha is correct.  Cystiphyllum and Cystiphylloides are examples of corals with this structure.  Both are common in Michigan and nearby states/provinces, Cystiphyllum in the Silurian and Cystiphylloides in the Devonian.

 

Don

[nerzhin]

Thanks for replies. Here are some better pictures. I should have been more clear. The pathological bone is from a recent coyote kill. Probably within five years. They had chewed most of the bones and antlers but had left this one alone.I knew it wasn't fossil, I was just wondering what the heck it was. The fossil was from a road ditch drain. I have collected a lot of rugose but none that were oddly shaped and worn like this one. When the possibility of deer antler base was raised, I have to admit my heart skipped a beat. Finding ice age fauna fossils or just past in the timeline is my dream here in the Ann arbor area, where coral abounds but not much in the way of younger things.

 

  

  

  

[minnbuckeye]

14 minutes ago, nerzhin said:

 

 

 This picture rules out exostosis, as the marrow cavity is clearly affected. Now it makes me wonder if it isn't something that precipitated or grew on the bone AFTER death. The fractured bone fragments look like they have clean  edges. Tumor and infection "rots" the bone so the edges would be rough, mottled, not smooth. I wish others would weigh in!! 

 

Mike

Edited May 15, 2021 by minnbuckeye

[ClearLake]

Thanks for the new pictures, those are great.  Man, that is one nasty looking bone!  The broken end practically looks like it exploded. Makes me think it had to be broken (auto collision?) but then the animal lived long enough to get a severe infection and resulting growth in the area. I suppose it could be something grown on it during decomposition, but I have no idea what that would be. 

 

Looks very different from the one I have where the whole humerus/scapula joint was infected and rotted.  Makes me think more like cancer on mine as @minnbuckeye suggested, although mine is definitely a deer so I’m not sure how that fits in with the whole cancer control issue that @Lone Hunter mentioned. But, I’m just speculating...

Edited May 16, 2021 by ClearLake

[Rockwood]

On 5/15/2021 at 9:10 AM, FossilDAWG said:

Both are common in Michigan and nearby states/provinces,

 I flew through O Hare a couple times. They must have been going by too fast. 

[Lone Hunter]

Another thought on the bone, if the deer was trying to use the bad leg and putting weight on it the bone would be continuingly trying to heal since it wasn't stabilized resulting in the strange callus build up. Fun fact, leg injuries in deer cause antler deformation. Well maybe not so fun for the deer.