Paraloid B72 solution for fossils? Good or bad?

[JoLynn Mangum Self]

Should this be required for the Ladonia Texas fossils and choctaw county Oklahoma?

Mosasaurus vertebrate?

Mosasaurus web digits?

Mosasaurus teeth?

Goblin Mosasaurus teeth?

Shark or fish teeth?

Shrimp fossil?

Pupa fossil?

Worm tube fossils?

Ammonite fossils?

Baculite fossils?

Sea urchins fossils?

Limestone fossils??????

Snail & gastropod fossils?

Edited May 25, 2021 by JoLynn Mangum Self

[Harry Pristis]

I only speak for vertebrate fossils, mind you. 

If you value a vertebrate fossil (I exclude shark teeth here) -- and you want it to last -- consolidate it with a plastic.

You cannot reliably judge by eye what will happen to the bone after 2 years, or 5 years, or 15 years in your drawer. Bones with which you could drive nails when first collected may split after years in your drawer. Teeth, when thoroughly dry, may split. These splits cannot be repaired to the original condition because of distortion to the bone or dentin or cementum.

This may happen to any bone, so, if you're going to keep the bone, play the probabilities. Consolidate! Impregnation with plastic will prevent many later headaches (I'm not telling you to soak your head in consolidant). I am saying that there is nothing more disheartening than to open a drawer and to find a prize specimen tooth split in two.

Trust the decades of museum experience.

 

[JimB88]

But be careful with the acetone..it is highly flammable.

[snolly50]

37 minutes ago, JimB88 said:

careful with the acetone

It (acetone) gives me an almost instant headache. Use it outside. I wear a gas rated mask, but I am apparently over sensitive. 

[Yoda]

8 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

consolidate it with a plastic.

 

What products would you recommend ?? 

[Harry Pristis]

3 hours ago, Yoda said:

What products would you recommend ?? 

 

Here is my experience with consolidation:  Harry Pristis - The Fossil Forum

[Thomas.Dodson]

Harry's advice on vertebrate remains is solid as always. I consolidate all bone aside from small chunkosaurs (and even some chunkosaurs from sites with rare vertebrate material). I have a hadrosaur atlas vert from back when I used to buy fossils as a kid that has split into many spider cracks. It serves as a good reminder to consolidate all the vertebrate material I collect. I do consolidate some Cretaceous shark teeth I collect, it depends on the preservation. Some teeth I collected in Georgia have some degree of pyrite preservation in the root and were susceptible to pyrite decay. That brings me to the next point; always consolidate fossils with any degree of pyrite preservation. Even ones that seem completely solid may decay down the road and consolidation reinforces structure and keeps moisture out.

 

Aside from the "always consolidate" categories above some other fossils get consolidated on a case by case basis. Fragile, friable, or easily eroded fossils get consolidated. Many do not, it all depends on the preservation. Some annoying sandstone matrix gets consolidated just to stop shedding of the sandstone grains.

 

[jpc]

Enquiring minds want to know, Thomas...what do you consolidate them with?

 

I, on the other hand rarely consolidate any of the bones I find.  I do consolidate in the field to hold them together using Vinac (=McGean B-15), but I usually remove that as part of the prep and then glue them more permanently (cyanoacrylate) as I clean things up.

 

But to answer the OP question, B-72 is safe for most fossils.  The only thing I would never coat with anyhting is insects and other things that are a thin carbon ghost on shale.  Consolidant on these only acts to hide details at a microscopic scale.  

[Thomas.Dodson]

24 minutes ago, jpc said:

Enquiring minds want to know, Thomas...what do you consolidate them with?

Mainly Paraloid B-72.

 

28 minutes ago, jpc said:

I, on the other hand rarely consolidate any of the bones I find.  I do consolidate in the field to hold them together using Vinac (=McGean B-15), but I usually remove that as part of the prep and then glue them more permanently (cyanoacrylate) as I clean things up.

 

I was under the impression consolidating bone was a pretty standard practice. You have vastly more experience than me so I'm surprised to hear you don't usually consolidate bone you find. Is this more your preference or is it less common than I thought? Have you ever had any problems with drying out or splitting? Is your storage humidity controlled? You say "rarely" so I'm also curious what circumstances you do choose to consolidate.

[siteseer]

5 hours ago, snolly50 said:

It (acetone) gives me an almost instant headache. Use it outside. I wear a gas rated mask, but I am apparently over sensitive. 

 

Hi Snolly50,

 

Yes, I either use it outside or in a well-ventilated room with a fan blowing past me.

 

Jess

[hadrosauridae]

8 hours ago, snolly50 said:

It (acetone) gives me an almost instant headache. Use it outside. I wear a gas rated mask, but I am apparently over sensitive. 

 

Just a note those who dont know... Paraloid is solvent in alcohol also.  

[JoLynn Mangum Self]

19 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

I only speak for vertebrate fossils, mind you. 

If you value a vertebrate fossil (I exclude shark teeth here) -- and you want it to last -- consolidate it with a plastic.

You cannot reliably judge by eye what will happen to the bone after 2 years, or 5 years, or 15 years in your drawer. Bones with which you could drive nails when first collected may split after years in your drawer. Teeth, when thoroughly dry, may split. These splits cannot be repaired to the original condition because of distortion to the bone or dentin or cementum.

This may happen to any bone, so, if you're going to keep the bone, play the probabilities. Consolidate! Impregnation with plastic will prevent many later headaches (I'm not telling you to soak your head in consolidant). I am saying that there is nothing more disheartening than to open a drawer and to find a prize specimen tooth split in two.

Trust the decades of museum experience.

 

Limestone ok?

What kind of acetone?

Any good utube video?

[JoLynn Mangum Self]

20 hours ago, JoLynn Mangum Self said:

Should this be required for the Ladonia Texas fossils and choctaw county Oklahoma?

Mosasaurus vertebrate?

Mosasaurus web digits?

Mosasaurus teeth?

Goblin Mosasaurus teeth?

Shark or fish teeth?

Shrimp fossil?

Pupa fossil?

Worm tube fossils?

Ammonite fossils?

Baculite fossils?

Sea urchins fossils?

Limestone fossils??????

Snail & gastropod fossils?

Pottery? 

Edited May 26, 2021 by JoLynn Mangum Self

[Thomas.Dodson]

12 minutes ago, JoLynn Mangum Self said:

Limestone ok?

What kind of acetone?

Any good utube video?

Yes, Paraloid and other consolidants will work on limestone. Pottery isn't my thing but it should probably work as a consolidant if you really need it to. I'd make sure any pigments or the like aren't going to wash off with acetone.  The important thing about the consolidants we use (this includes Butvar, Paraloid, and others) is that they are reversible as well.

 

Acetone is just acetone. Acetone picked up at a hardware store or wherever is fine.

 

I'm not aware of any Youtube videos for it but there might be some. Harry lists the general process in the link he gave to his profile. It's pretty straightforward. The only real sticking point is the dilution. For Paraloid a lot of people use 1:20-1:30 Paraloid B-72 to acetone for soaking, or thinner if brushing on. I personally don't measure it out exactly but just eyeball it. If it is too thick I can always add more acetone or add more Paraloid if it is too thin.

[hadrosauridae]

Limestone and pottery would all be fine for consolidating with paraloid.  Acetone is acetone, there are no different kinds.  The only thing to be careful of is that its 100% pure.  The easiest thing to do is to get a can at a home improvement store.  If you wanted to use alcohol instead, then buy "denatured alcohol".

[jpc]

as for acetone, yeah, use hardware store acetone...NOT fingernail polish remover, which is acetone plus who knows what esle to make it smell nice.

[jpc]

7 hours ago, Thomas.Dodson said:

 

I was under the impression consolidating bone was a pretty standard practice. You have vastly more experience than me so I'm surprised to hear you don't usually consolidate bone you find. Is this more your preference or is it less common than I thought? Have you ever had any problems with drying out or splitting? Is your storage humidity controlled? You say "rarely" so I'm also curious what circumstances you do choose to consolidate.

Lots of questions here.  Most of the bones I collect are very sturdy.  Weak ones, such as those form the Lance Fm, often do need some consolidation.  But things like white river bones, and most of the Eocene bones, there is no reason to consolidate them.  It may be less common than you think.  A lot of dinosaur scientists these days are requesting field folks to not use consolidant because it can mess with biochemical analyses.  I have had things fall apart, but that is rare and usually the result of poor suuport of poor handling, but dryingh is not an issue.  As for climate control, Wyoming is generally dry all the time.  It is not an issue here like it might be in other places... even North Dakota.  The collections at the museum are a little more climate controlled, but generally just for temo, not humidity.    

 

On the other hand, we collected a mammoth a few years ago.  That thing was pure bone, no fossilization (again... dry climate)... we consolidated that one til the cows came home.  PaleoBond and vinac.  

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by jpc

[Thomas.Dodson]

7 minutes ago, jpc said:

Lots of questions here.  Most of the bones I collect are very sturdy.  Weak ones, such as those form the Lance Fm, often do need some consolidation.  But things like white river bones, and most of the Eocene bones, there is no reason to consolidate them.  It may be less common than you think.  A lot of dinosaur scientists these days are requesting field folks to not use consolidant because it can mess with biochemical analyses.  I have had things fall apart, but that is rare and usually the result of poor suuport of poor handling, but dryingh is not an issue.  As for climate control, Wyoming is generally dry all the time.  It is not an issue here like it might be in other places... even North Dakota.  The collections at the museum are a little more climate controlled, but generally just for temo, not humidity.    

 

On the other hand, we collected a mammoth a few years ago.  That thing was pure bone, no fossilization (again... dry climate)... we consolidated that one til the cows came home.  PaleoBond and vinac.  

 

 

Very interesting, I appreciate the reply.

[Troodon]

9 hours ago, jpc said:

Lots of questions here.  Most of the bones I collect are very sturdy.  Weak ones, such as those form the Lance Fm, often do need some consolidation.  But things like white river bones, and most of the Eocene bones, there is no reason to consolidate them.  It may be less common than you think.  A lot of dinosaur scientists these days are requesting field folks to not use consolidant because it can mess with biochemical analyses.  I have had things fall apart, but that is rare and usually the result of poor suuport of poor handling, but dryingh is not an issue.  As for climate control, Wyoming is generally dry all the time.  It is not an issue here like it might be in other places... even North Dakota.  The collections at the museum are a little more climate controlled, but generally just for temo, not humidity.    

 

On the other hand, we collected a mammoth a few years ago.  That thing was pure bone, no fossilization (again... dry climate)... we consolidated that one til the cows came home.  PaleoBond and vinac.  

 

 

Interesting, in the Hell Creek I find bones that are hard as baseball bats and have not consolidated them. Always wondered if that was a problem but never had any issues with them over 20 years.  I do hit every tooth I see with glue to keep them from breaking during extraction since they are usually damp and soft in channel deposits

[FossilDAWG]

1 hour ago, Troodon said:

I do hit every tooth I see with glue to keep them from breaking during extraction since they are usually damp and soft in channel deposits

I'm curious about the glue you use on damp fossils in the field.   My understanding is that paraloid will make a white insoluble mess on wet fossils, as will white glue.  I have lost potentially decent specimens because they were wet and crumbled in the field because I did not know how to consolidate them.

 

Don

[hadrosauridae]

6 minutes ago, FossilDAWG said:

I'm curious about the glue you use on damp fossils in the field.   My understanding is that paraloid will make a white insoluble mess on wet fossils, as will white glue.  I have lost potentially decent specimens because they were wet and crumbled in the field because I did not know how to consolidate them.

 

Don

 

A super thin cyanoacrylate like PB-02 works on these. If you think its really damp, you could leave it exposed for a little while (things dry fast in the hell creek) and then put the CA on every crack you see.  I wouldnt use it for something coming out of water, but typical damp earth has never been a problem.  Moisture causes CA to activate so it probably wont penetrate far, and will likely leave a surface coating, but it will help stabilize the fossil and the surface can be cleaned with a little effort.

 

Its interesting that Troodon has found mostly solid bones in the HC, where everything I have found (with the exception of the fossil in my avatar) have all been highly fractured and extremely fragile, requiring consolidation just to remove.  Probably the difference in the natures of the specific quarries worked.

[FossilDAWG]

Well, I'm talking about really wet, as in exposed in the bed of a creek with water running over it.  A few years ago I was collecting at the classic Coon Creek site and I found a 2-foot + section of a Baculites right at water level in the creek.  I tried to make a dam around it but water just kept coming in.  Finally I tried to trench around it but it just "melted" into mud with nice nacreous shell bits in it.  Ouch!

 

Don

[Troodon]

55 minutes ago, FossilDAWG said:

I'm curious about the glue you use on damp fossils in the field.   My understanding is that paraloid will make a white insoluble mess on wet fossils, as will white glue.  I have lost potentially decent specimens because they were wet and crumbled in the field because I did not know how to consolidate them.

 

Don

I've just seen it turn some of area white around where the glue is applied and would never intentionally use it on damp bones but have never seen it damage them.   I typically try to let bone air dry to a point that I can get a field jacket around them which is most cases.  I just use glue at breaks, with a very narrow tip and wait to consolidate during and after prepping.  I'm a minimalist when using glue and typically use PaleoBond field glue.  

On more delicate specimens I have just glued the matrix around the bone and pulled out the entire block and dealt with it back home.  

I was digging once in Montana and it started snowing so we had a bit more white than expected but if I can recall, it was a while back, everything cleaned up okay.

 

 

 

[FossilDAWG]

Thanks.  I'll order some and give it a try.  I'm not a bone collector (except by chance opportunity) but it sucks just as much to lose a rare shell or echinoid when unconsolidated wet matrix crumbles.

 

Don

[jpc]

2 hours ago, hadrosauridae said:

 

A super thin cyanoacrylate like PB-02 works on these. If you think its really damp, you could leave it exposed for a little while (things dry fast in the hell creek) and then put the CA on every crack you see.  I wouldnt use it for something coming out of water, but typical damp earth has never been a problem.  Moisture causes CA to activate so it probably wont penetrate far, and will likely leave a surface coating, but it will help stabilize the fossil and the surface can be cleaned with a little effort.

 

Its interesting that Troodon has found mostly solid bones in the HC, where everything I have found (with the exception of the fossil in my avatar) have all been highly fractured and extremely fragile, requiring consolidation just to remove.  Probably the difference in the natures of the specific quarries worked.

I find POB-02 very difficult and time consuming to remove in the lab.  This is why I use Vinac.  I agree with your second paragraph 100% for the Lance Fm.