Penguin beak (Pliocene of Chile)

[ziggycardon]

I just ordered this piece which I was watching for quite a while as I wanted to add some more bird material to my collection. 

It's a penguin beak found in the Bahia Inglesa Formation, Atacama Desert, Copiapo, Chile (Pliocene, around 4 mya).

It was listed as "Pelecyornis sp." but since that is a genus terror bird I don't think that ID is correct. After doing some google research I am more leaning towards perhaps Spheniscus urbinai or Spheniscus megaramphus or another species. 
But I am far from an expert on bird material let alone fossil penguins so I was hoping on some imput from more experienced members on that field. 

[Fossildude19]

@Boesse  @Dave (POM) Allen   @Auspex

   

 

Ziggy, do you know the size of the fossil?

[ziggycardon]

15 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

@Boesse  @Dave (POM) Allen   @Auspex

   

 

Ziggy, do you know the size of the fossil?

My apologies, I should have mentioned that in the post, the fossil is 48 mm in length.

[Harry Pristis]

The beak is composed of keratin, the same tough, insoluble protein found in fingernails, hoofs, and horns.  Keratin doesn't preserve well as a fossil.  It would be astonishing if this were actually a keratinous bird beak.

[ParkerPaleo]

I think more specifically, it is the premax/maxilla, not the actual beak.  The beak would attach over the top of the bone structure.  I have a few of these specimen as well and they are bone.

[Auspex]

1 hour ago, ParkerPaleo said:

I think more specifically, it is the premax/maxilla, not the actual beak.  The beak would attach over the top of the bone structure.  I have a few of these specimen as well and they are bone.

You are correct. In the 'collector's vernacular', "beak" is very often used as a descriptor.

@ziggycardon You do indeed have the distal portion of a penguin premax/maxilla. I doubt that a solid species name can be applied, though, as such lack discrete diagnostic features. It's a nice fossil, as anything 'bird' is a treasure. ;^)

[ziggycardon]

2 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

The beak is composed of keratin, the same tough, insoluble protein found in fingernails, hoofs, and horns.  Keratin doesn't preserve well as a fossil.  It would be astonishing if this were actually a keratinous bird beak.

 

43 minutes ago, Auspex said:

You are correct. In the 'collector's vernacular', "beak" is very often used as a descriptor.

@ziggycardon You do indeed have the distal portion of a penguin premax/maxilla. I doubt that a solid species name can be applied, though, as such lack discrete diagnostic features. It's a nice fossil, as anything 'bird' is a treasure. ;^)

You are absolutely right, I did indeed mean the bird jaw.

I am sorry about the confusion it got kinda lost in translation as in dutch we use the same word "bek" to talk about the mouth of certain animals (mainly birds, platypus, turtles, ...) as well as to talk about the keratine sheet. 

Thank you all for your input, I am indeed very happy I did aqcuire it as my collection was in desperate need for some bird material.  

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by ziggycardon

[Harry Pristis]

I still don't see it.  

 

[Boesse]

Isn't it illegal to purchase fossils from Chile?

[grandpa]

@Auspex great to see your name in the responses.  Been missing your input!

 

@ziggycardon what a great addition to your collection!!

[ThePhysicist]

3 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

I still don't see it.

 

Spheniscus sp.:

 

This looks like a closer match.

[ziggycardon]

8 hours ago, Boesse said:

Isn't it illegal to purchase fossils from Chile?

Isn't that only the case when they are exported out of the country itself to protect fossil sites? This fossil is located in Italy and come from an older collection. 
Hence why chilean Great Whites are also still occasionally found on the market.

 

4 hours ago, ThePhysicist said:

 

Spheniscus sp.:

 

This looks like a closer match.

A Spheniscus species was my thought as well  

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

51 minutes ago, ziggycardon said:

Isn't that only the case when they are exported out of the country itself to protect fossil sites? This fossil is located in Italy and come from an older collection. 
Hence why chilean Great Whites are also still occasionally found on the market.

 

Never underestimate how easy it is for a recently found fossil to "find its way" into an "old collection". Without the proper provenance documentation (check the pertinent Chilean law to see what this consists of), it's the easiest way of turning something illegal legal. Same goes for the antiquities trade, by the way...

[Troodon]

Tons of Chilean material of all kind was on the market until a few years ago when the government finally put a embargo on it.   You could not go to a show and not see shark, penguin, whale, fish etc material for sale at lots of dealers in large quantities.   Its not surprising to see it resold and its common today to see shark material for sale on the web.   Impossible to track yes but one that is realistically possible given what preceeded it and the volume of material that was exported.

[Boesse]

I just needed to get that disclaimer in first before identifying it: what you've got isn't from a penguin at all, it's a tubenose (Procellariiformes), likely a petrel (Puffinus), giant petrel (Macronectes), or an albatross (Diomedea), depending on the size.

[ThePhysicist]

1 hour ago, Boesse said:

I just needed to get that disclaimer in first before identifying it: what you've got isn't from a penguin at all, it's a tubenose (Procellariiformes), likely a petrel (Puffinus), giant petrel (Macronectes), or an albatross (Diomedea), depending on the size.

 

You say that because of the degree of the "hooking" on the end?

[Boesse]

Yes, and also the dorsal profile suggests that the nares are retracted posteriorly, and the dorsal side appears flattened - this surface accomodates the soft tissue "tube nose" that gives procellariiform birds their name. These seabirds also are the ones with the biggest hooks on the end of the beak. Cormorant would be a possibility, but the dorsal side in phalacrocoracids isn't excavated to accommodate a "tube nose".

[ziggycardon]

6 hours ago, Boesse said:

I just needed to get that disclaimer in first before identifying it: what you've got isn't from a penguin at all, it's a tubenose (Procellariiformes), likely a petrel (Puffinus), giant petrel (Macronectes), or an albatross (Diomedea), depending on the size.

Thank you, the beaks of these birds do indeed seem to match up more to the fossil in the images.

[siteseer]

On 6/4/2021 at 1:30 AM, Troodon said:

Tons of Chilean material of all kind was on the market until a few years ago when the government finally put a embargo on it.   You could not go to a show and not see shark, penguin, whale, fish etc material for sale at lots of dealers in large quantities.   Its not surprising to see it resold and its common today to see shark material for sale on the web.   Impossible to track yes but one that is realistically possible given what preceeded it and the volume of material that was exported.

 

 

Yeah, I think there was tons of it.  In the mid-late 90's, I saw one dealer with baskets full of great white teeth sorted by size.  A few dealers had several large Pristiophorus rostral spines, large Scalidicetus teeth in great condition, and even a few bird skulls.  And consider that stuff appeared for sale in Europe before it came over here.  We got the overflow.

[ziggycardon]

The bird jaw arrived today! 

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

Awesome piece, Ken, even if not penguin! Looks great!

[ziggycardon]

12 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

Awesome piece, Ken, even if not penguin! Looks great!

Thank you, I am very pleased with it.

It well exceeded my expectations, it truly is an exceptional fossil