Cenozoic salamander

[M Harvey]

This has bugged me for years.  It's a small amphibian or reptile ( 8cm long) found at Fossil OR at the high school site.  The strata is tuffaceous siltstone famous for leaf impressions.  It's part of the John Day formation, oligocene in age.  I have read that salamanders are occasionally found there but cannot find any more information as to species or anatomy.  I was even wondering if it could be a snake with vestigial femurs.  I'm hoping that someone can provide me some specifics so I can finally finish cataloging this specimen.    

[jpc]

This may be unidentifiable without better pix and/or some serious prep work.  It does look like a string of verts, though.  Great find.

 

[jdp]

Yes, this is a salamander. John Jacisen published a paper on the salamanders of John Day a few years back, which should be easy to find. Most of that material is from the newt genus Taricha...the anatomy I can make out in these pictures is consistent with that, particularly the broad blocky neural arches on the vertebrae. So, probably Taricha oligocenica but it could be T. lindoei. It is conceivable that it could be something else too but, as I said, the anatomy is consistent enough with Taricha that I wouldn't overthink it too much.

 

Articulated Oligocene salamander fossils are relatively rare even in scientific collections. Congrats on a really cool little fossil!

Paper in question is here:

 

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-paleontology/article/abs/redescription-and-phylogenetic-analysis-based-on-new-material-of-the-fossil-newts-taricha-oligocenica-van-frank-1955-and-taricha-lindoei-naylor-1979-amphibia-salamandridae-from-the-oligocene-of-oregon/9688C7EA3BD357933B301355027DA274

 

Let me know if you need a copy of the pdf.

[RJB]

I am of no help, but it is very interesting.

 

RB

[FossilDAWG]

I am consistently amazed by the expertise we have within our community!

 

Don

[M Harvey]

3 hours ago, FossilDAWG said:

I am consistently amazed by the expertise we have within our community!

I agree. I was unable to find any info on this find for the last 25 yrs.  This was fast and sooo easy.

 

12 hours ago, jdp said:

Yes, this is a salamander. John Jacisen published a paper on the salamanders of John Day a few years back, which should be easy to find. Most of that material is from the newt genus Taricha...the anatomy I can make out in these pictures is consistent with that, particularly the broad blocky neural arches on the vertebrae. So, probably Taricha oligocenica but it could be T. lindoei. It is conceivable that it could be something else too but, as I said, the anatomy is consistent enough with Taricha that I wouldn't overthink it too much.

 

Articulated Oligocene salamander fossils are relatively rare even in scientific collections. Congrats on a really cool little fossil!

Paper in question is here:

 

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-paleontology/article/abs/redescription-and-phylogenetic-analysis-based-on-new-material-of-the-fossil-newts-taricha-oligocenica-van-frank-1955-and-taricha-lindoei-naylor-1979-amphibia-salamandridae-from-the-oligocene-of-oregon/9688C7EA3BD357933B301355027DA274

 

Let me know if you need a copy of the pdf.

I would love to have a pdf of this report.  maybe I will contact J Jacisen to see if he is interested in examining this specimen.   

[jdp]

I've attached the pdf of Jacisin & Hopkins 2018 here. Hopefully this is useful to you.

 

In the light of day, I think your specimen might actually preserve part of the skull (the wider mass of flat bones by the edge of the rock). Hard to tell because it is out of focus in your photos but I think I can make out a few key features. A better photo would help there.

[FossilDAWG]

Just curious, did you mean to attach a php file?  Not sure what people will do with the source code.

 

Don

[Kane]

Here is the PDF

jpa_2017.85.pdf

[FossilDAWG]

Thanks Kane.

Figure 2 looks like Casper the friendly ghost.

 

Don

[M Harvey]

4 hours ago, jdp said:

I've attached the pdf of Jacisin & Hopkins 2018 here. Hopefully this is useful to you.

 

In the light of day, I think your specimen might actually preserve part of the skull (the wider mass of flat bones by the edge of the rock). Hard to tell because it is out of focus in your photos but I think I can make out a few key features. A better photo would help there.

76 kB · 4 downloads

Thanks for the article.  I will reference it.  

Here is a better photo of the "skull"  As you can see it continues under the matrix but it is far too delicate for my abilities to further excavate.

[old bones]

What a neat fossil! 

[jdp]

17 hours ago, M Harvey said:

Thanks for the article.  I will reference it.  

Here is a better photo of the "skull"  As you can see it continues under the matrix but it is far too delicate for my abilities to further excavate.

 

Yes, I think there's some skull there. The long slender bone, for instance, looks like part of the lower jaw. It might make sense to get this to someone with some experience in micro-prep, because I bet there's a decent amount of the skull in there and it is probably reasonably nice.

[M Harvey]

Who would you suggest?

[jdp]

I honestly couldn't make a recommendation (all the preparators I know are professionals at museums) but perhaps someone on the forum might be able to. You should get someone who has extensive experience with fine needlework under a microscope and who can show you a portfolio of completed work that is as difficult or more difficult than this fossil. 

 

I will also say that you shouldn't have any prep done on the specimen at all if you are considering donating the specimen. 

Edited June 12, 2021 by jdp

[jpc]

If Jacisin is interested, this may be better suited for microCT than actual prep.  I have done a lot of microvert prep and could probably do this, but it would be labor intensive.  I am trying to remember what the matrix is like at Fossil High School.  I have prepped leaves from there, but bones are a whole different thing.  

[jdp]

I scanned a bunch of those salamanders for John back in ~2013/2014 or so and what I'll say is that there is not great bone-matrix contrast in the JODA salamanders. Might get better results from a larger scanner or from an alternate imaging modality like neutron scanning or synchrotron phase-contrast, but I'm not sure whether the juice would be worth the squeeze.

[M Harvey]

38 minutes ago, jdp said:

I scanned a bunch of those salamanders for John back in ~2013/2014 or so and what I'll say is that there is not great bone-matrix contrast in the JODA salamanders. Might get better results from a larger scanner or from an alternate imaging modality like neutron scanning or synchrotron phase-contrast, but I'm not sure whether the juice would be worth the squeeze.

 

1 hour ago, jpc said:

If Jacisin is interested, this may be better suited for microCT than actual prep.  I have done a lot of microvert prep and could probably do this, but it would be labor intensive.  I am trying to remember what the matrix is like at Fossil High School.  I have prepped leaves from there, but bones are a whole different thing.  

I contacted Dr S S Hopkins at the Univ of OR ( author of the paper you sent me).  She is interested in doing a micro CT.  

[jdp]

Cool, very exciting.

[Sjfriend]

Great find! As a lover of modern herps (reptiles and amphibians) I would love to find something like that!

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

Impressive find! Very interesting to read about too